Women, Leadership & Mental Health in the Church. A Conversation with Jess Quak

Today I'm Stoked for two reasons.
Actually. I'm stoked for about five reasons. But number one reason I'm happy today is that I have my favorite human in the podcast studio by far the best person I love to bits. My wife, Jessica Quak. Welcome to Sunburnt Souls.

00:00:35:05 - 00:00:37:09
Jess Quak
Thank you. I thought you going to say Jesus.

00:00:37:10 - 00:01:00:09
Dave Quak
Oh, no no no. Oh, we obviously, So I'm excited about you. I'm excited that we're recording this on the last day of the Australian winter. You know, people listening might think, oh, winter on the gold Coast isn't so bad. It is. It's from UGG boots and double jumpers. And it's called man, I sleep in the podcast. You do a lot of the time.

00:01:00:11 - 00:01:09:08
Dave Quak
Well, because it's soundproof, which is epic, but also because there's a heater in here and I just crank it and sweat and love life. So you don't tend to come in when I'm in that state?

00:01:09:12 - 00:01:11:04
Jess Quak
No, it's a bit gross, to be honest.

00:01:11:04 - 00:01:15:19
Dave Quak
It's just not gross, you know? Do you really like winter or are you just doing it to stir me?

00:01:15:23 - 00:01:17:05
Dave Quak
No, it's.

00:01:17:07 - 00:01:19:09
Jess Quak
Winter and the Gold Coast is quite beautiful.

00:01:19:15 - 00:01:20:23
Dave Quak
I mean, the Wales.

00:01:21:00 - 00:01:21:23
Dave Quak
We did go see the Wales.

00:01:21:23 - 00:01:23:09
Jess Quak
Yeah. It's lovely.

00:01:23:11 - 00:01:31:19
Dave Quak
I do appreciate you coming on Jess. We've been married 22 or 23 years or 21 years. What is it. Oh it's 22 very 20.

00:01:32:00 - 00:01:33:05
Jess Quak
It's nearly 23.

00:01:33:05 - 00:01:34:05
Dave Quak
Is it in December.

Dave Quak
So you've been a pastor just as long as me. You know, we've been in this game forever, but it didn't start the same. So just to give a bit of context. So Jess and I studied at our denominational Bible college from 2004 to 2007. And what you do is you do a Bachelor of Ministries. I did a Bachelor of Ministries.

00:02:29:02 - 00:02:57:01
Dave Quak
She did a Bachelor of Theology, which is a harder degree. And then while we were leading that, we were also, oh, doing that, sorry. We were leading a youth ministry that blew up and there were heaps of kids there. But at that time, Jess, you were 19 when we started. Yeah. And I was 23 turning 24. We were earning as youth pastor's $416 a week between US 416.

00:02:57:03 - 00:03:35:20
Dave Quak
And we got by because Centrelink topped us up with the study allowance. And so we were earning about 650 bucks a week, driving up to Bree, sometimes at 5 a.m. to catch a couple of lectures and then sleep in the car and catch another lecture and get back what? We were going hard, man. And then what happens is, is, along the same time as study is you do your registration, which is like, you know, people mentor you and you got to fulfill certain other requirements, like read this many books and go to this many seminars and all of that stuff into Pmdd, which is like your personal ministry development plan.

00:03:35:22 - 00:03:51:15
Dave Quak
And at the end of it you get registered as pastors. And so after all of that, I came out and got registered as a pastor in our movement, and it was a big moment for me. Got registered as a pastor. How about you, Jess? So you did all the same as me. Well.

00:03:51:17 - 00:04:03:13
Jess Quak
I was wondering where you're going with this. I honestly, I was like, wow, that's quite a detailed explanation. At that stage, we had we finished.

00:04:03:15 - 00:04:14:08
Dave Quak
Our denomination didn't ordain women in ministry, not ordained or have them as pastors.

00:04:14:08 - 00:04:15:21
Jess Quak
They were still working through.

00:04:15:24 - 00:04:17:08
Dave Quak
What women in ministry.

00:04:17:09 - 00:04:19:13
Jess Quak
Looks like.

00:04:19:15 - 00:04:21:21
Dave Quak
And so.

00:04:21:23 - 00:04:22:07
Dave Quak
So what.

00:04:22:07 - 00:04:26:21
Jess Quak
Did you get at the end? I was registered as the highest possible.

00:04:26:21 - 00:04:28:03
Dave Quak
Qualification I.

00:04:28:03 - 00:04:31:01
Jess Quak
Could, which was a pastoral assistant.

00:04:31:01 - 00:04:32:10
Dave Quak
A pastoral assistant.

00:04:32:12 - 00:04:32:24
Jess Quak
Yes.

00:04:32:24 - 00:04:36:14
Dave Quak
And they was in your own home, a pastor?

00:04:36:16 - 00:04:38:08
Jess Quak
Yes. You were very excited.

00:04:38:08 - 00:04:39:18
Dave Quak
About making fun of me for.

00:04:39:18 - 00:04:42:09
Jess Quak
That for a very long time. Let me say this.

00:04:42:11 - 00:05:01:08
Dave Quak
I'm okay. I need to have some water. Yeah, it's my personal assistant. Like, ludicrous. Because you did literally exactly the same thing. Except you got higher grades. So you went and did the H instead of the Beaman because you could understand Greek, which I couldn't. So you came out and then so. And look, we not bitter about that.

00:05:01:08 - 00:05:24:01
Dave Quak
This is just framing the context. And so that's where our movement was. And then about ten years later around 20 1112 I think I'm right. But a good time later there was like a bunch of people within the movement who pulled together a vote at the National Assembly and at the national assemblies, where people from all over the state come together.

00:05:24:02 - 00:05:50:02
Dave Quak
I mean, you can never imagine a more fun he's got. No, it actually is pretty good. Yeah, but that one, there was a vote to ordain women and it was overturned. And so it was voted down that the denomination will take a stance that, no, we're not going to do that. And then last year we went to the Baptist Assembly again, and it was a way different vibe in the room.

00:05:50:04 - 00:05:58:09
Dave Quak
And then eventually there was a vote and it was approved that women would also be ordained or have the opportunity to be ordained within our movement.

00:05:58:12 - 00:06:00:06
Dave Quak
Yeah.

00:06:00:08 - 00:06:14:11
Dave Quak
So for you as a woman, that whole process didn't rattle you for a bunch of reasons. But what was it like going through that whole process?

00:06:14:13 - 00:06:16:24
Jess Quak
Look, I don't have the same sort of.

00:06:16:24 - 00:06:17:17
Dave Quak
Journey.

00:06:17:17 - 00:06:18:10
Jess Quak
As what.

00:06:18:10 - 00:06:20:22
Dave Quak
Some women may have.

00:06:20:22 - 00:06:22:16
Jess Quak
Had. I've had a really.

00:06:22:16 - 00:06:24:13
Dave Quak


00:06:24:15 - 00:06:25:02
Jess Quak
Easy.

00:06:25:02 - 00:06:28:06
Dave Quak
Blessed run. Yeah, considering with ministry. And I know a.

00:06:28:06 - 00:06:29:14
Jess Quak
Lot of people have it quite hard.

00:06:29:14 - 00:06:31:07
Dave Quak
I felt called to ministry.

00:06:31:09 - 00:06:31:24
Jess Quak
Pretty early.

00:06:31:24 - 00:06:34:14
Dave Quak
On. And.

00:06:34:17 - 00:06:35:15
Jess Quak
Pretty early.

00:06:35:15 - 00:06:35:23
Dave Quak
In.

00:06:35:23 - 00:06:37:23
Jess Quak
Our relationship as.

00:06:37:23 - 00:06:38:08
Dave Quak
Well.

00:06:38:08 - 00:06:41:14
Jess Quak
And I had always felt.

00:06:41:16 - 00:06:44:11
Dave Quak
And in the time when I was called to ministry, we.

00:06:44:11 - 00:06:44:22
Jess Quak
Were a.

00:06:44:22 - 00:06:48:15
Dave Quak
Part of and to nomination that we we're not part of now.

00:06:48:17 - 00:06:50:02
Jess Quak
Where.

00:06:50:04 - 00:06:52:01
Dave Quak
They didn't have women preaching.

00:06:52:01 - 00:06:58:06
Jess Quak
And, and that sort of thing, and it didn't feel at all like.

00:06:58:08 - 00:06:59:05
Jess Quak
That was.

00:06:59:07 - 00:07:01:05
Dave Quak
Ever going to be a problem.

00:07:01:07 - 00:07:03:10
Jess Quak
Because it felt like, if God is.

00:07:03:10 - 00:07:05:00
Dave Quak
Calling me to do something.

00:07:05:02 - 00:07:05:22
Dave Quak


00:07:05:24 - 00:07:07:12
Dave Quak
He's going to be the one to make the.

00:07:07:12 - 00:07:08:13
Jess Quak
Way.

00:07:08:15 - 00:07:10:22
Dave Quak
To make it happen. And so.

00:07:10:22 - 00:07:13:08
Jess Quak
That has been our story.

00:07:13:08 - 00:07:14:16
Dave Quak
Or my story.

00:07:14:18 - 00:07:17:18
Jess Quak
Where.

00:07:17:20 - 00:07:20:22
Dave Quak
Whether or not my title is something or not something.

00:07:20:22 - 00:07:22:20
Jess Quak
I've just every step of the way, I just.

00:07:22:20 - 00:07:23:04
Dave Quak
Wanted to be.

00:07:23:04 - 00:07:24:22
Jess Quak
Obedient to what God has in front.

00:07:24:22 - 00:07:26:22
Dave Quak
Of me right now. And for.

00:07:26:22 - 00:07:27:16
Jess Quak
Some people, that a.

00:07:27:16 - 00:07:28:08
Dave Quak
Calling might.

00:07:28:08 - 00:07:29:14
Jess Quak
Be to.

00:07:29:16 - 00:07:30:21
Dave Quak
Look at a denominational.

00:07:30:21 - 00:07:31:24
Jess Quak
Stance or theology.

00:07:31:24 - 00:07:33:06
Dave Quak
On something.

00:07:33:08 - 00:07:38:07
Jess Quak
I've obviously had to go through a lot of processing myself.

00:07:38:09 - 00:07:38:18
Dave Quak
You know.

00:07:38:18 - 00:07:43:22
Jess Quak
What does this look like biblically? What does this look like with people who do agree with where I.

00:07:43:24 - 00:07:45:03
Dave Quak
End up or don't.

00:07:45:03 - 00:07:46:05
Jess Quak
Agree with where.

00:07:46:05 - 00:07:46:17
Dave Quak
I end.

00:07:46:17 - 00:07:47:10
Jess Quak
Up?

00:07:47:12 - 00:07:48:13
Dave Quak


00:07:48:15 - 00:07:56:13
Jess Quak
But at the end of the day, whenever I have, these sorts of questions.

00:07:56:13 - 00:07:57:24
Dave Quak
Come up, even for.

00:07:57:24 - 00:07:59:08
Jess Quak
Myself, it's.

00:07:59:10 - 00:08:01:02
Dave Quak
It often comes down to.

00:08:01:02 - 00:08:03:24
Jess Quak
The very real.

00:08:04:01 - 00:08:07:17
Dave Quak
Understanding that I am going to be standing in front of my father at the.

00:08:07:17 - 00:08:08:16
Jess Quak
End of the day.

00:08:08:18 - 00:08:09:17
Dave Quak
And I'm going to be held.

00:08:09:17 - 00:08:13:15
Jess Quak
Accountable for everything he's asked me to do.

00:08:13:17 - 00:08:15:22
Dave Quak
Everything I have done and everything I have not done that.

00:08:15:22 - 00:08:16:09
Jess Quak
He's asked me.

00:08:16:09 - 00:08:19:22
Dave Quak
To do. And he's going to love me either way. But I want to.

00:08:19:22 - 00:08:21:02
Jess Quak
Be.

00:08:21:04 - 00:08:21:18
Dave Quak
Hearing the.

00:08:21:18 - 00:08:22:08
Jess Quak
Words well.

00:08:22:08 - 00:08:23:07
Dave Quak
Done, good and faithful.

00:08:23:07 - 00:08:29:17
Jess Quak
Servant. And so I have to be,

00:08:29:19 - 00:08:37:11
Jess Quak
Standing. I have a very real, Weight. There's a weight to.

00:08:37:11 - 00:08:39:12
Dave Quak
It in that I'm not just going, yeah, I'm going to.

00:08:39:15 - 00:08:41:13
Jess Quak
Do this because I feel like I like it, or.

00:08:41:13 - 00:08:43:02
Dave Quak
I'm making a stance because.

00:08:43:02 - 00:08:45:12
Jess Quak
I want to. It's just like, that's.

00:08:45:14 - 00:08:46:12
Dave Quak
Actually my end.

00:08:46:12 - 00:08:46:21
Jess Quak
Goal.

00:08:46:21 - 00:08:48:19
Dave Quak
That's where my skin is in the game.

00:08:48:21 - 00:08:49:05
Dave Quak
Yeah.

00:08:49:06 - 00:08:53:02
Dave Quak
And so, yet I can still.

00:08:53:02 - 00:08:54:22
Jess Quak
Appreciate that other people.

00:08:55:02 - 00:08:58:03
Dave Quak
May not have the same stance as me. And I have.

00:08:58:05 - 00:09:00:22
Jess Quak
Brothers and sisters in Christ who.

00:09:00:23 - 00:09:01:19
Dave Quak
You know, I love.

00:09:01:19 - 00:09:04:14
Jess Quak
So dearly. They're churches that.

00:09:04:16 - 00:09:05:19
Dave Quak
I champion so.

00:09:05:19 - 00:09:06:08
Jess Quak
Heavily.

00:09:06:08 - 00:09:11:19
Dave Quak
I love so much what they're doing. I think they're amazing. We don't agree on whether or not, you know, I.

00:09:11:19 - 00:09:14:17
Jess Quak
Should be allowed to preach to a church.

00:09:14:19 - 00:09:15:11
Dave Quak
I'm totally.

00:09:15:11 - 00:09:16:09
Jess Quak
Okay with that, though.

00:09:16:09 - 00:09:18:17
Dave Quak
Because I know they love me. And I.

00:09:18:17 - 00:09:21:06
Jess Quak
Know that they love Jesus.

00:09:21:06 - 00:09:21:13
Dave Quak
And they're.

00:09:21:13 - 00:09:24:03
Jess Quak
Just also doing what they.

00:09:24:08 - 00:09:25:15
Dave Quak
Can to stand before.

00:09:25:15 - 00:09:26:03
Jess Quak
The father at.

00:09:26:03 - 00:09:27:00
Dave Quak
The end of the day and.

00:09:27:00 - 00:09:29:11
Jess Quak
Say, I did what I felt like.

00:09:29:13 - 00:09:54:13
Dave Quak
Yeah. So and that's the thing, like this church not to be reformed or complementary and brothers, like you said, they're our brothers. Yeah, we love them. And we're not trying to convert any or not say that they're wrong or right or any of that stuff. It's just a difference of interpretation of the Bible. And the crazy cool thing is that when you get to, you know, when you've exhausted your own research, it's refreshing to come to the topic and see that there's really smart people on both sides.

00:09:54:13 - 00:10:18:01
Dave Quak
Yeah, who have wrestled this out since Jesus left, you know, and still can worship the same Jesus. But I think there's implications in our culture where it's just different because it would touch if there's not egalitarian leadership would be one of the only organizations where that's the case. I mean, you might kid. I don't know, man. The Freemasons, are they still all dudes or.

00:10:18:02 - 00:10:37:12
Dave Quak
Yeah, you know what I mean? Like, oh, do culture cults, you don't know? Well, I went straight to a cult, but like, you know, like, what would it be like for someone, do you think? And you will know because you've had lots and lots and lots of women reach out to you over these 20 years. What's it like for the ones who don't have the dream run that.

00:10:37:15 - 00:10:41:07
Jess Quak
Yeah. Okay. And so this is where this is.

00:10:41:07 - 00:10:42:18
Dave Quak
Coming to have a bit more of a.

00:10:42:18 - 00:10:46:17
Jess Quak
Voice within the Christian church. Where there are.

00:10:46:19 - 00:10:48:21
Dave Quak
You know, I'm part of some, you know.

00:10:48:21 - 00:10:50:10
Jess Quak
Facebook groups or groups.

00:10:50:10 - 00:10:52:08
Dave Quak
Of women who are in.

00:10:52:08 - 00:10:53:12
Jess Quak
Ministry.

00:10:53:14 - 00:10:56:15
Dave Quak
And, and I, someone had just.

00:10:56:15 - 00:10:57:06
Jess Quak
Recently put.

00:10:57:06 - 00:11:00:15
Dave Quak
Out I'm writing a book about women in ministry. What's some of the.

00:11:00:15 - 00:11:04:15
Jess Quak
Worst things that you've been told?

00:11:04:17 - 00:11:06:18
Dave Quak
And some of the comments and things that.

00:11:06:18 - 00:11:07:05
Jess Quak
People like.

00:11:07:05 - 00:11:11:07
Dave Quak
Oh, I can't even say. And, and so often, so much the time it.

00:11:11:07 - 00:11:14:15
Jess Quak
Is that, that like, oh, I'm.

00:11:14:20 - 00:11:17:12
Dave Quak
Not wanting to be dishonoring to anyone who's saying.

00:11:17:12 - 00:11:18:00
Jess Quak
Things.

00:11:18:00 - 00:11:21:17
Dave Quak
So, that's when, you know, someone should be in ministry.

00:11:21:17 - 00:11:23:20
Jess Quak
I suppose if they're going to just go bag everyone.

00:11:23:20 - 00:11:25:14
Dave Quak
Out, then you kind of wondering if.

00:11:25:14 - 00:11:26:17
Jess Quak
They've got the right heart to.

00:11:26:17 - 00:11:30:04
Dave Quak
Be in ministry at all. Woman or not.

00:11:30:06 - 00:11:32:04
Jess Quak
But for especially.

00:11:32:04 - 00:11:34:06
Dave Quak
I think, single women, it's been hard.

00:11:34:08 - 00:11:45:12
Jess Quak
Because I think traditionally it was very easy for a wife of a pastor to be a.

00:11:45:14 - 00:11:47:13
Dave Quak
Traditional way for a woman.

00:11:47:13 - 00:11:48:03
Jess Quak
To.

00:11:48:03 - 00:11:49:21
Dave Quak
Serve in ministry.

00:11:49:23 - 00:11:51:22
Jess Quak
But it's unpaid.

00:11:51:24 - 00:11:53:18
Dave Quak
Or a two for one time or two.

00:11:53:18 - 00:11:54:16
Dave Quak
For one.

00:11:54:18 - 00:11:55:17
Jess Quak
She's or.

00:11:55:17 - 00:11:56:15
Dave Quak
She's not getting paid.

00:11:56:15 - 00:11:58:04
Jess Quak
But expected to do the work.

00:11:58:04 - 00:12:01:13
Dave Quak
And that's made it hard on ministry marriages.

00:12:01:15 - 00:12:02:22
Jess Quak
Because the.

00:12:02:22 - 00:12:03:05
Dave Quak
Line.

00:12:03:05 - 00:12:05:06
Jess Quak
Isn't clear for the church, the.

00:12:05:06 - 00:12:09:06
Dave Quak
Training might not be there. And I mean, I know our denominations doing a lot to make sure.

00:12:09:06 - 00:12:11:06
Jess Quak
That that sort of stuff is, but that.

00:12:11:06 - 00:12:15:09
Dave Quak
Starting to, be made a little bit more aware of now.

00:12:15:09 - 00:12:16:00
Jess Quak
Especially.

00:12:16:00 - 00:12:20:05
Dave Quak
As, you know, single women is becoming a much bigger demographic within the.

00:12:20:05 - 00:12:20:18
Jess Quak
Church.

00:12:20:18 - 00:12:21:22
Dave Quak
And having a voice to.

00:12:21:22 - 00:12:22:10
Jess Quak
Speak to.

00:12:22:10 - 00:12:23:15
Dave Quak
Other women.

00:12:23:17 - 00:12:25:11
Jess Quak
In the church, however that looks.

00:12:25:11 - 00:12:26:05
Dave Quak
Is becoming.

00:12:26:05 - 00:12:27:21
Jess Quak
Bigger. Yeah. So it.

00:12:27:21 - 00:12:29:06
Dave Quak
Is,

00:12:29:08 - 00:12:30:00
Jess Quak
It's hard.

00:12:30:00 - 00:12:33:21
Dave Quak
Sometimes when I mean, I've, I know.

00:12:33:21 - 00:12:36:01
Jess Quak
I've personally had people walk out.

00:12:36:01 - 00:12:36:24
Dave Quak
When I've.

00:12:36:24 - 00:12:38:04
Jess Quak
Stood up to preach.

00:12:38:10 - 00:12:38:24
Dave Quak


00:12:39:01 - 00:12:40:00
Dave Quak
Yeah, I remember that.

00:12:40:02 - 00:12:43:07
Jess Quak
But I that's for me.

00:12:43:07 - 00:12:44:08
Dave Quak
I understand.

00:12:44:08 - 00:12:44:22
Jess Quak
But I.

00:12:44:22 - 00:12:47:17
Dave Quak
Can understand how some are coming into that.

00:12:47:19 - 00:12:49:14
Jess Quak
Situation.

00:12:49:16 - 00:12:51:24
Dave Quak
Oh, some of the comments that are made.

00:12:52:01 - 00:12:57:13
Jess Quak
I think it's the tricky thing. Ricky. And I think this is just.

00:12:57:13 - 00:13:00:00
Dave Quak
The differences in men and women that you probably don't.

00:13:00:00 - 00:13:01:18
Jess Quak
Get.

00:13:01:20 - 00:13:04:06
Dave Quak


00:13:04:08 - 00:13:08:01
Dave Quak
You don't think about as much. And, I mean, there's jokes about marriage and stuff.

00:13:08:03 - 00:13:09:10
Jess Quak
But like.

00:13:09:12 - 00:13:10:11
Dave Quak
As a woman, there's.

00:13:10:11 - 00:13:11:04
Jess Quak
Just different.

00:13:11:04 - 00:13:14:02
Dave Quak
Challenges within ministry.

00:13:14:02 - 00:13:21:24
Jess Quak
And one of them is so stupid, but it's clothing because people do feel.

00:13:21:24 - 00:13:22:18
Dave Quak
A need.

00:13:22:19 - 00:13:23:10
Jess Quak
To say.

00:13:23:10 - 00:13:24:16
Dave Quak
Something.

00:13:24:18 - 00:13:25:22
Jess Quak
If they feel a.

00:13:25:22 - 00:13:27:00
Dave Quak
Woman's wearing something.

00:13:27:00 - 00:13:28:08
Jess Quak
Inappropriate.

00:13:28:10 - 00:13:31:15
Dave Quak
And so going to try and toe the line of what.

00:13:31:15 - 00:13:36:04
Jess Quak
Is appropriate to wear.

00:13:36:06 - 00:13:39:06
Dave Quak
And ministry is not just preaching on a Sunday.

00:13:39:06 - 00:13:41:22
Jess Quak
It's going to weddings and baby showers.

00:13:41:22 - 00:13:42:08
Dave Quak
And you.

00:13:42:08 - 00:13:43:07
Jess Quak
Also.

00:13:43:09 - 00:13:46:00
Dave Quak
You know for me and mum. So you know, there was a time when I was.

00:13:46:00 - 00:13:46:20
Jess Quak
Breastfeeding.

00:13:46:20 - 00:13:48:04
Dave Quak
And I had to try and figure.

00:13:48:04 - 00:13:51:01
Jess Quak
Out, okay, how do I do this.

00:13:51:03 - 00:13:51:06
Dave Quak
You.

00:13:51:06 - 00:13:54:19
Dave Quak
Went breastfeeding while preaching. No, no, no, that would be the ultimate multi-tasker.

00:13:54:19 - 00:14:03:10
Jess Quak
I mean, my hat's off to you if I could see, but it's, Yeah.

00:14:03:12 - 00:14:04:23
Dave Quak
Silly little things.

00:14:05:03 - 00:14:05:12
Jess Quak
Like.

00:14:05:12 - 00:14:07:14
Dave Quak
That. And and it's that.

00:14:07:14 - 00:14:08:04
Jess Quak
Hyper.

00:14:08:04 - 00:14:09:06
Dave Quak
Awareness.

00:14:09:06 - 00:14:11:11
Jess Quak
That that is actually still part.

00:14:11:11 - 00:14:12:06
Dave Quak
Of some.

00:14:12:11 - 00:14:13:00
Jess Quak
Part of.

00:14:13:00 - 00:14:14:14
Dave Quak
The conversation.

00:14:14:16 - 00:14:17:10
Jess Quak
For people. Whereas, for men.

00:14:17:12 - 00:14:18:12
Dave Quak
You know.

00:14:18:14 - 00:14:19:03
Jess Quak
You, for.

00:14:19:03 - 00:14:19:18
Dave Quak
Example.

00:14:19:18 - 00:14:22:19
Jess Quak
Like I've seen at church is probably a little bit.

00:14:22:19 - 00:14:24:19
Dave Quak
Different, like you've gotten up.

00:14:24:21 - 00:14:26:13
Jess Quak
One day you sent me a text.

00:14:26:14 - 00:14:27:14
Dave Quak
Going, Jess.

00:14:27:14 - 00:14:31:03
Jess Quak
I've can you please bring me a pair of pants? Because I've just.

00:14:31:03 - 00:14:34:05
Dave Quak
Realized the ones I'm wearing have holes and paint on them, and I've.

00:14:34:05 - 00:14:36:14
Jess Quak
Also forgotten my shoes.

00:14:36:16 - 00:14:38:01
Dave Quak
I mean, at church doesn't care.

00:14:38:02 - 00:14:39:07
Jess Quak
So we are by the.

00:14:39:07 - 00:14:40:09
Dave Quak
Beach, and so.

00:14:40:09 - 00:14:41:00
Jess Quak
Our culture's.

00:14:41:00 - 00:14:44:09
Dave Quak
Quite fine with that. And, and.

00:14:44:09 - 00:14:45:15
Jess Quak
Some churches probably.

00:14:45:15 - 00:14:48:18
Dave Quak
Wonder if they're, you know, they're pastors not wearing.

00:14:48:18 - 00:14:49:12
Jess Quak
A suit.

00:14:49:12 - 00:14:50:10
Dave Quak
Or something, but at least.

00:14:50:10 - 00:14:51:17
Jess Quak
Is a very clear.

00:14:51:17 - 00:14:54:16
Dave Quak
Expectation of what does need to be worn.

00:14:54:18 - 00:15:07:08
Dave Quak
So do you think women leaders get commented on that? And then, it's kind of like an well, what's the point of making that comment like, this is not just a random woman walking past, this is your leader, this is your pastor. Like, why are we commenting on her?

00:15:07:12 - 00:15:08:11
Jess Quak
Yeah.

00:15:08:13 - 00:15:09:12
Dave Quak
But even in like.

00:15:09:12 - 00:15:10:06
Jess Quak
The.

00:15:10:08 - 00:15:11:20
Dave Quak
Leading up to get into.

00:15:11:20 - 00:15:13:02
Jess Quak
Ministry, it is is.

00:15:13:02 - 00:15:13:20
Dave Quak
Overcoming the.

00:15:13:20 - 00:15:15:13
Jess Quak
Hurdle of.

00:15:15:15 - 00:15:16:05
Dave Quak
You are going.

00:15:16:05 - 00:15:22:04
Jess Quak
To have a a large group of people say what you're doing isn't biblical and perhaps it's.

00:15:22:04 - 00:15:23:17
Dave Quak
Demonic from the.

00:15:23:17 - 00:15:25:21
Jess Quak
Devil. Yeah.

00:15:25:23 - 00:15:27:00
Dave Quak
Things like that.

00:15:27:00 - 00:15:28:22
Jess Quak
You're leading people astray.

00:15:28:22 - 00:15:30:19
Dave Quak
You're not doing the right thing by.

00:15:30:19 - 00:15:31:01
Jess Quak
Your.

00:15:31:01 - 00:15:33:24
Dave Quak
Husband and children or,

00:15:34:01 - 00:15:34:11
Jess Quak
By.

00:15:34:11 - 00:15:36:13
Dave Quak
Other women.

00:15:36:15 - 00:15:38:20
Jess Quak
You know, those sorts of things.

00:15:38:22 - 00:15:42:00
Dave Quak
Most of the time. People. I mean.

00:15:42:02 - 00:15:46:18
Jess Quak
This is always going to be people. People say crazy things because, you know, we're.

00:15:46:20 - 00:15:47:04
Dave Quak
A.

00:15:47:06 - 00:15:52:21
Jess Quak
Church of broken people who are saved by the grace of God. But.

00:15:52:23 - 00:15:55:02
Dave Quak
It's overcoming those things.

00:15:55:04 - 00:15:56:09
Jess Quak
As it's just the.

00:15:56:09 - 00:15:57:10
Dave Quak
Additional.

00:15:57:12 - 00:15:58:07
Dave Quak


00:15:58:09 - 00:16:07:00
Jess Quak
Additional pressure, additional pressure, the additional. Yeah, little bits and pieces that you don't think are,

00:16:07:02 - 00:16:08:08
Dave Quak
Should be, should matter.

00:16:08:08 - 00:16:12:10
Jess Quak
But they, they sort of just all add up these little tiny things.

00:16:12:12 - 00:16:25:07
Dave Quak
Yeah. When those people walked out when you were telling that story and I still remember in the moment I was living and wanting to go out, go outside and chase them away with a stick. Yeah. It's almost like you couldn't care less. No one was that.

00:16:25:09 - 00:16:26:11
Jess Quak
I could care.

00:16:26:14 - 00:16:27:22
Dave Quak


00:16:27:24 - 00:16:33:22
Jess Quak
Because I felt that I'd done.

00:16:33:24 - 00:16:34:12
Dave Quak
You know, all.

00:16:34:12 - 00:16:39:09
Jess Quak
The work to prepare, to preach what.

00:16:39:11 - 00:16:39:21
Dave Quak
Was in.

00:16:39:21 - 00:16:43:12
Jess Quak
Scripture that day for that congregation.

00:16:43:14 - 00:16:47:23
Dave Quak
But then at the same time, I'm living by.

00:16:47:24 - 00:16:50:01
Jess Quak
The conviction of the Holy Spirit.

00:16:50:01 - 00:16:53:02
Dave Quak
In me. And if these it's kind of almost to me.

00:16:53:02 - 00:16:56:10
Jess Quak
It feels like, passage in where Paul is.

00:16:56:10 - 00:16:57:06
Dave Quak
Saying, you know.

00:16:57:06 - 00:16:58:05
Jess Quak
If there are some people.

00:16:58:05 - 00:16:59:24
Dave Quak
And their conscience doesn't allow them eat.

00:16:59:24 - 00:17:01:11
Jess Quak
Meat, don't go.

00:17:01:11 - 00:17:04:08
Dave Quak
Eating meat. If I'm like, yeah.

00:17:04:10 - 00:17:09:06
Jess Quak
Just just be you be gentle, with your brothers and sisters. And if that is.

00:17:09:06 - 00:17:11:17
Dave Quak
Where they're landing.

00:17:11:19 - 00:17:14:10
Jess Quak
I applaud them for their conviction to to.

00:17:14:10 - 00:17:15:10
Dave Quak
Stand on that and go.

00:17:15:10 - 00:17:18:21
Jess Quak
Okay, but I do feel sad for the church as a whole.

00:17:18:21 - 00:17:19:15
Dave Quak
That then.

00:17:19:17 - 00:17:20:07
Jess Quak
The church as a.

00:17:20:07 - 00:17:21:18
Dave Quak
Whole missed out on having those.

00:17:21:18 - 00:17:25:17
Jess Quak
Two people that day be a part of what he.

00:17:25:17 - 00:17:27:06
Dave Quak
Was doing there and what they could.

00:17:27:06 - 00:17:28:15
Jess Quak
Have brought to the table.

00:17:28:15 - 00:17:30:02
Dave Quak
Because church on a Sunday isn't.

00:17:30:02 - 00:17:31:04
Jess Quak
Just about.

00:17:31:06 - 00:17:33:07
Dave Quak
The person up there front speaking. And what they're.

00:17:33:07 - 00:17:35:23
Jess Quak
Doing. Church is about every person who.

00:17:35:23 - 00:17:36:10
Dave Quak
Comes.

00:17:36:10 - 00:17:37:11
Jess Quak
In is a part of.

00:17:37:11 - 00:17:39:14
Dave Quak
Loving someone that they encounter.

00:17:39:14 - 00:17:41:09
Jess Quak
That day in the way that.

00:17:41:09 - 00:17:42:24
Dave Quak
God made them to love someone else.

00:17:42:24 - 00:17:47:23
Jess Quak
Whether that's serving, having a conversation, praying, or even just their presence.

00:17:48:00 - 00:17:49:04
Dave Quak
And so.

00:17:49:06 - 00:17:49:12
Jess Quak
It's.

00:17:49:12 - 00:17:50:01
Dave Quak
Hard when it.

00:17:50:01 - 00:17:50:17
Jess Quak
Feels like.

00:17:50:17 - 00:17:52:10
Dave Quak
People are missing.

00:17:52:12 - 00:17:53:16
Jess Quak
Because of.

00:17:53:18 - 00:17:54:16
Dave Quak
Me.

00:17:54:18 - 00:17:56:03
Jess Quak
Yeah. But at the.

00:17:56:03 - 00:17:58:22
Dave Quak
Same time.

00:17:58:24 - 00:18:00:09
Jess Quak
For us.

00:18:00:11 - 00:18:01:08
Dave Quak
I'm grateful.

00:18:01:08 - 00:18:02:06
Jess Quak
That we.

00:18:02:06 - 00:18:02:13
Dave Quak
Are in a.

00:18:02:13 - 00:18:07:23
Jess Quak
Position where, you know, we lead the church.

00:18:07:23 - 00:18:08:23
Dave Quak
Together and we.

00:18:08:23 - 00:18:12:23
Jess Quak
Sort of say, if this is a part of who we are as a church.

00:18:12:23 - 00:18:16:05
Dave Quak
And we're going to be championing anyone who.

00:18:16:05 - 00:18:20:08
Jess Quak
Feels called to any position within the church.

00:18:20:10 - 00:18:22:12
Dave Quak
That's where we lean biblically on this.

00:18:22:16 - 00:18:23:19
Dave Quak
Yeah.

00:18:23:21 - 00:18:25:16
Dave Quak
So if you are coming here, please know.

00:18:25:16 - 00:18:27:01
Jess Quak
To expect that.

00:18:27:02 - 00:18:44:13
Dave Quak
Yeah. And that is an advantage of sharing the role. So we, literally five days between us. Yeah. And each specialize in certain areas. And if someone comes to me and needs to speak about something heavy billets, Jess's department, I'd literally just send them your way and you do the same to me. Yeah.

00:18:44:13 - 00:18:44:20
Dave Quak
And I.

00:18:44:20 - 00:18:45:09
Dave Quak
Mean, so.

00:18:45:09 - 00:18:46:20
Jess Quak
Yeah, it's brilliant.

00:18:46:20 - 00:18:47:24
Dave Quak
Being. And I.

00:18:48:00 - 00:18:48:19
Jess Quak
Don't, I.

00:18:48:19 - 00:18:49:08
Dave Quak
Don't know.

00:18:49:08 - 00:18:53:16
Jess Quak
How we because we've done ministry together. Our whole ministry lives.

00:18:53:18 - 00:18:54:04
Dave Quak
And we have.

00:18:54:04 - 00:18:56:17
Jess Quak
Such different skill sets. But also.

00:18:56:17 - 00:18:58:22
Dave Quak
Having you as a man who I.

00:18:58:22 - 00:19:03:12
Jess Quak
Go, oh, this is a do issue. You need to speak to Dave.

00:19:03:14 - 00:19:05:05
Dave Quak
But then there are some.

00:19:05:07 - 00:19:06:12
Jess Quak
Issues that people.

00:19:06:12 - 00:19:07:17
Dave Quak
Aren't going to be comfortable.

00:19:07:17 - 00:19:08:22
Jess Quak
Speaking to you about.

00:19:08:22 - 00:19:10:10
Dave Quak
That will come speak to me.

00:19:10:10 - 00:19:10:22
Jess Quak
Like at.

00:19:10:23 - 00:19:12:01
Dave Quak
The moment I'm in the stage.

00:19:12:01 - 00:19:13:01
Jess Quak
Of life where I'm happy.

00:19:13:01 - 00:19:16:04
Dave Quak
Having, you know, perimenopause and menopause.

00:19:16:04 - 00:19:27:08
Jess Quak
Discussions with people, like, what does that look like and how are you going with that? Has it affecting your spiritual walk? How are you connecting with God in these matters? You know, that's a really uncomfortable discussion for you to have and.

00:19:27:08 - 00:19:28:01
Dave Quak
Probably not.

00:19:28:01 - 00:19:30:24
Jess Quak
Necessarily super appropriate.

00:19:31:01 - 00:19:35:13
Dave Quak
Even know what it all is, man. So there's no point in me having lunch. But that's what it is a good team.

00:19:35:13 - 00:19:36:06
Jess Quak
Yeah.

00:19:36:06 - 00:19:37:06
Dave Quak
And and.

00:19:37:08 - 00:19:42:08
Jess Quak
To absolutely give.

00:19:42:10 - 00:19:43:08
Dave Quak
My, my.

00:19:43:08 - 00:19:45:18
Jess Quak
Gratitude is at to.

00:19:45:20 - 00:19:47:04
Dave Quak
The men and women who.

00:19:47:04 - 00:19:50:02
Jess Quak
Were part of.

00:19:50:04 - 00:19:51:21
Dave Quak
Opening the way for me.

00:19:51:21 - 00:19:53:24
Jess Quak
To be able to serve who said.

00:19:53:24 - 00:19:54:20
Dave Quak
You know, I, I.

00:19:54:20 - 00:19:55:19
Jess Quak
See this calling in.

00:19:55:19 - 00:19:56:19
Dave Quak
Your life and I want to create a.

00:19:56:19 - 00:19:58:23
Jess Quak
Space for you to be able to do this. Yeah.

00:19:58:23 - 00:19:59:19
Dave Quak
And I had.

00:19:59:19 - 00:20:00:11
Jess Quak
That.

00:20:00:13 - 00:20:01:18
Dave Quak
When we first began in.

00:20:01:18 - 00:20:02:20
Jess Quak
Ministry.

00:20:02:22 - 00:20:05:07
Dave Quak
And then I remember when we were called as.

00:20:05:07 - 00:20:05:22
Jess Quak
Youth pastors.

00:20:05:22 - 00:20:07:08
Dave Quak
Down here, and one of.

00:20:07:08 - 00:20:07:23
Jess Quak
The.

00:20:07:24 - 00:20:09:24
Dave Quak
Most impacting things.

00:20:09:24 - 00:20:15:08
Jess Quak
That, the senior pastor said to me was.

00:20:15:10 - 00:20:16:05
Dave Quak
We're not.

00:20:16:05 - 00:20:18:18
Jess Quak
Getting you as a team, just a two for.

00:20:18:18 - 00:20:19:20
Dave Quak
One.

00:20:19:22 - 00:20:23:10
Jess Quak
We are getting you as Dave and as Jess. You each.

00:20:23:10 - 00:20:24:12
Dave Quak
Have something to bring to the.

00:20:24:12 - 00:20:27:21
Jess Quak
Table. It is so brilliant that we have a.

00:20:27:21 - 00:20:29:13
Dave Quak
Woman being able to speak.

00:20:29:13 - 00:20:30:08
Jess Quak
Into.

00:20:30:09 - 00:20:31:02
Dave Quak
You know, half the.

00:20:31:02 - 00:20:33:06
Jess Quak
Population.

00:20:33:08 - 00:20:35:03
Dave Quak
From that perspective. And a man.

00:20:35:03 - 00:20:37:14
Jess Quak
Dave, he was able to speak to half the population.

00:20:37:14 - 00:20:37:23
Dave Quak
From that.

00:20:37:23 - 00:20:40:03
Jess Quak
Perspective.

00:20:40:05 - 00:20:41:11
Dave Quak
Nah, that was really brutal.

00:20:41:11 - 00:20:42:08
Dave Quak
And it was.

00:20:42:10 - 00:20:43:07
Dave Quak
It's set the past.

00:20:43:09 - 00:20:44:20
Jess Quak
It did, it really did.

00:20:44:20 - 00:20:46:07
Dave Quak
And having.

00:20:46:07 - 00:20:47:13
Jess Quak
Those.

00:20:47:15 - 00:20:50:13
Dave Quak
People in my life, I am still.

00:20:50:14 - 00:20:51:13
Jess Quak
So very grateful.

00:20:51:13 - 00:20:52:09
Dave Quak
To them to this.

00:20:52:09 - 00:20:52:23
Jess Quak
Day for.

00:20:52:23 - 00:20:53:20
Dave Quak
Being able to make.

00:20:53:20 - 00:20:57:07
Jess Quak
That so easy.

00:20:57:09 - 00:21:02:20
Dave Quak
And then allowing that to happen and championing me along the way.

00:21:02:22 - 00:21:32:21
Dave Quak
Yeah. So there's obviously something really you've got going on with God, because a lot of what you said comes back to affirming the father's call on your life with your mental wellbeing during this whole time. Now you got good mental health. You know more than me, more than a lot of people. But what's it like for your mental health when you're thinking about this stuff and if you can't speak personally as you've counseled people as appropriate, what's it like for their mental wellbeing to be almost systemically struggling?

00:21:33:00 - 00:21:38:14
Dave Quak
You know what I mean? Look, I'm. Yeah, I'm a middle class white dude. Like, I've never systemically struggled.

00:21:38:16 - 00:21:39:00
Jess Quak
Yeah.

00:21:39:00 - 00:21:48:15
Dave Quak
You know, I've never had a system against me. It's it's quite easy being me. Yeah. You know, and so like for people who, you know, and when I say systemically I'm like, you say the system.

00:21:48:18 - 00:21:49:02
Dave Quak
Yeah.

00:21:49:03 - 00:22:00:20
Dave Quak
Has a theological bent towards that not being the case within that systemically struggling. Yeah. So with anyone similar to that, what's it like for their mental wellbeing or and how do you keep going in your faith with that.

00:22:00:22 - 00:22:02:24
Jess Quak
Yeah it's really.

00:22:02:24 - 00:22:05:13
Dave Quak
Different I think for a lot of different people and it depends on where.

00:22:05:13 - 00:22:09:00
Jess Quak
Their life circumstances are at as well. I think, like.

00:22:09:00 - 00:22:09:24
Dave Quak
I said, being a married.

00:22:09:24 - 00:22:16:17
Jess Quak
Couple, it actually is quite a lot easier because, I think you.

00:22:16:17 - 00:22:19:03
Dave Quak
Have a foot in the door.

00:22:19:05 - 00:22:20:08
Jess Quak
Being you.

00:22:20:08 - 00:22:21:00
Dave Quak
And then.

00:22:21:00 - 00:22:21:23
Jess Quak
People will give.

00:22:21:23 - 00:22:23:02
Dave Quak
Me.

00:22:23:04 - 00:22:30:10
Jess Quak
A shot. I mean, like, oh, does she have something to say? Because I want Dave, but he comes with Jess.

00:22:30:12 - 00:22:35:19
Dave Quak
And you get the foot in the door, and then people are willing to listen to me, and then they'll take me on my own. Is that what.

00:22:35:19 - 00:22:36:13
Dave Quak
It's been like?

00:22:36:15 - 00:22:37:02
Dave Quak
I think at.

00:22:37:02 - 00:22:39:18
Jess Quak
The start at least.

00:22:39:20 - 00:22:41:07
Dave Quak
Not so much now, but.

00:22:41:07 - 00:22:49:22
Dave Quak
I wouldn't say now because it is opening that I don't have now, like you were doing that devotion on the Bible app. Yeah, that I didn't get invited to.

00:22:49:24 - 00:22:50:13
Dave Quak
Yeah.

00:22:50:19 - 00:23:00:13
Dave Quak
You know, and so I think it's, it's going that way and you get to speak a bit more and I think that'll increase later. All right. So once the kids are out of school, you'll be speaking all over the place. Ooh.

00:23:00:15 - 00:23:01:17
Jess Quak
That's actually that.

00:23:01:17 - 00:23:02:17
Dave Quak
Is probably my biggest.

00:23:02:17 - 00:23:03:04
Jess Quak
Area.

00:23:03:04 - 00:23:07:01
Dave Quak
That is the biggest mind game for me,

00:23:07:03 - 00:23:09:23
Jess Quak
Is because.

00:23:10:00 - 00:23:11:18
Dave Quak
My sort of ministry.

00:23:11:18 - 00:23:12:00
Jess Quak
Growth.

00:23:12:00 - 00:23:12:16
Dave Quak
Has been.

00:23:12:16 - 00:23:14:19
Jess Quak
The way that it has been I.

00:23:15:00 - 00:23:21:00
Dave Quak
And so initially, and for a long time, there were only a couple of women.

00:23:21:00 - 00:23:22:07
Jess Quak
Who were serving.

00:23:22:07 - 00:23:23:04
Dave Quak
In ministry.

00:23:23:04 - 00:23:24:24
Jess Quak
As as pastors.

00:23:24:24 - 00:23:26:18
Dave Quak
Yeah, there's literally less than five sort of thing.

00:23:26:18 - 00:23:29:14
Jess Quak
Yeah. So we'd go to a,

00:23:29:16 - 00:23:32:01
Dave Quak
Denominational thing and used to.

00:23:32:01 - 00:23:34:24
Jess Quak
Always laugh. Dave, you call it the sausage fest?

00:23:35:02 - 00:23:39:13
Dave Quak
I didn't say the sausage. You said that.

00:23:39:15 - 00:23:43:14
Jess Quak
I used to be like, wow, are you okay?

00:23:43:16 - 00:23:45:16
Dave Quak
Because there just wasn't that many other women.

00:23:45:18 - 00:23:46:12
Jess Quak
To be completely.

00:23:46:12 - 00:23:50:18
Dave Quak
Honest, I never really would notice until someone would point it out.

00:23:50:18 - 00:23:51:12
Jess Quak
But usually.

00:23:51:12 - 00:23:57:21
Dave Quak
Someone ends up pointing it out. I remember even being in a class once where,

00:23:57:23 - 00:23:58:23
Jess Quak
We were I.

00:23:58:23 - 00:24:02:08
Dave Quak
Kind of must have been doing an exegesis on a on a book of the.

00:24:02:08 - 00:24:02:19
Jess Quak
Bible or.

00:24:02:19 - 00:24:07:08
Dave Quak
Something. I was just loving it. And we were having discussion, and in one of.

00:24:07:08 - 00:24:07:23
Jess Quak
The breaks.

00:24:07:23 - 00:24:10:03
Dave Quak
One of the guys turned to me and he said.

00:24:10:05 - 00:24:19:20
Jess Quak
How is this for you? Is this okay for you? And I was like, yeah, this is great. And I didn't quite get where he was at. He's like, but is it hard being.

00:24:19:20 - 00:24:25:08
Dave Quak
Like the only woman or one of the only women in the room? I think there might have been another one. And to be.

00:24:25:08 - 00:24:26:05
Jess Quak
Completely honest, I.

00:24:26:05 - 00:24:27:09
Dave Quak
Hadn't noticed until.

00:24:27:09 - 00:24:30:08
Jess Quak
That point. But for him, had the roles.

00:24:30:08 - 00:24:32:07
Dave Quak
Been reversed and he was the only man in the.

00:24:32:07 - 00:24:35:01
Jess Quak
Group, it would have felt very.

00:24:35:03 - 00:24:36:15
Dave Quak


00:24:36:17 - 00:24:38:19
Jess Quak
Like confronting to reckon unrest.

00:24:38:19 - 00:24:39:16
Dave Quak
And it'd be so good.

00:24:39:16 - 00:24:41:08
Jess Quak
Yeah, but like you're.

00:24:41:08 - 00:24:42:21
Dave Quak
Used to having me around all the time, so.

00:24:42:21 - 00:24:44:14
Jess Quak
I think it was because.

00:24:44:16 - 00:24:45:12
Dave Quak
It may, I.

00:24:45:12 - 00:24:46:11
Jess Quak
Don't know, but. Yeah.

00:24:46:11 - 00:24:49:11
Dave Quak
No, but it's funny that he I mean, God bless his heart.

00:24:49:13 - 00:24:50:16
Jess Quak
Oh, definitely.

00:24:50:18 - 00:24:56:23
Dave Quak
Checking in. Your being there was, like, something he had to check in on.

00:24:57:00 - 00:24:58:01
Dave Quak
But only because.

00:24:58:01 - 00:24:58:16
Jess Quak
I.

00:24:58:18 - 00:25:03:07
Dave Quak
Didn't have someone like me that like another woman.

00:25:03:09 - 00:25:06:01
Jess Quak
But. Yeah. So.

00:25:06:03 - 00:25:10:18
Dave Quak
I think for me, when law women.

00:25:10:20 - 00:25:11:19
Jess Quak
Started.

00:25:11:21 - 00:25:15:11
Dave Quak
Joining in ministry or to a more official.

00:25:15:11 - 00:25:16:22
Jess Quak
Capacity at least.

00:25:16:24 - 00:25:27:11
Dave Quak
And it was being acknowledged more and there were more women in the room, and started speaking up about having a voice of women in ministry.

00:25:27:13 - 00:25:30:24
Jess Quak
I started to struggle. Then, because.

00:25:30:24 - 00:25:31:09
Dave Quak
Then I.

00:25:31:09 - 00:25:37:05
Jess Quak
Started to feel like, oh, this is a thing like.

00:25:37:07 - 00:25:38:22
Dave Quak
And yeah.

00:25:38:24 - 00:25:42:07
Dave Quak
I and

00:25:42:09 - 00:25:45:00
Jess Quak
I have like it felt like there was.

00:25:45:00 - 00:25:47:15
Dave Quak
And this wasn't put on me. This is something that I just.

00:25:47:15 - 00:25:49:02
Jess Quak
Felt because of the.

00:25:49:02 - 00:25:50:11
Dave Quak
Dynamic shift.

00:25:50:13 - 00:25:50:23
Jess Quak
Was it?

00:25:50:23 - 00:25:53:17
Dave Quak
Oh, I'm a representative of women here. And if I.

00:25:53:17 - 00:25:55:15
Jess Quak
Screw this up.

00:25:55:17 - 00:25:56:24
Dave Quak
I'm screwing it up for women.

00:25:56:24 - 00:25:58:03
Jess Quak
In ministry everywhere.

00:25:58:05 - 00:25:59:15
Dave Quak
And you feel that,

00:25:59:17 - 00:26:04:22
Dave Quak
And every now and again, I would feel that pressure, that if I don't.

00:26:04:22 - 00:26:06:13
Jess Quak
Do well here.

00:26:06:15 - 00:26:09:00
Dave Quak
All women are going to be, you know.

00:26:09:00 - 00:26:14:05
Jess Quak
Sort of put to this side because this is we feel like that sometimes.

00:26:14:07 - 00:26:16:18
Dave Quak
If someone hadn't had a woman.

00:26:16:20 - 00:26:19:09
Jess Quak
Leader, preacher before.

00:26:19:13 - 00:26:36:08
Dave Quak
See, that's real foreign to a do, because. Yeah, like, I remember when Serena Williams or one of them said something like, you know, I'm doing this for women everywhere. I'm like, what a stupid thing to say. Yeah, like you're playing tennis for the women. There's like 3 billion of these girls. Like, how are you representing everyone? But I don't get that.

00:26:36:13 - 00:26:39:07
Jess Quak
Yeah. What is that? Yeah. I don't.

00:26:39:09 - 00:26:40:04
Dave Quak
I don't know, but it.

00:26:40:04 - 00:26:43:01
Jess Quak
Is it there is a feeling where if.

00:26:43:01 - 00:26:43:20
Dave Quak
Someone.

00:26:43:20 - 00:26:44:07
Jess Quak
Is sort.

00:26:44:07 - 00:26:46:23
Dave Quak
Of on the fence.

00:26:47:00 - 00:26:47:11
Jess Quak
And they're.

00:26:47:11 - 00:26:48:19
Dave Quak
Looking at me.

00:26:48:19 - 00:26:49:02
Jess Quak
As.

00:26:49:02 - 00:26:50:09
Dave Quak
Part of an example.

00:26:50:09 - 00:26:51:04
Jess Quak
Of like.

00:26:51:06 - 00:26:53:16
Dave Quak
You're going to convince me slightly more.

00:26:53:16 - 00:26:55:03
Jess Quak
Either way.

00:26:55:05 - 00:26:56:05
Dave Quak
And that's what I think it is.

00:26:56:05 - 00:26:56:16
Jess Quak
It's that.

00:26:56:16 - 00:26:57:21
Dave Quak
False thing, because that's.

00:26:57:21 - 00:27:00:13
Jess Quak
Not actually true. But it's this.

00:27:00:13 - 00:27:01:15
Dave Quak
False narrative.

00:27:01:15 - 00:27:05:14
Jess Quak
Of like, if I do.

00:27:05:16 - 00:27:09:21
Jess Quak
Like, whatever it is that is, that is.

00:27:09:21 - 00:27:12:16
Dave Quak
The thing that's going to make them.

00:27:12:16 - 00:27:13:23
Jess Quak
Okay with.

00:27:14:02 - 00:27:17:00
Dave Quak
Next time someone asks or not.

00:27:17:00 - 00:27:19:23
Jess Quak
Okay, or help open space.

00:27:19:23 - 00:27:21:14
Dave Quak
For someone to close down that.

00:27:21:14 - 00:27:23:12
Jess Quak
Space because, you know.

00:27:23:17 - 00:27:30:05
Dave Quak
I maybe it was because of some of my own experiences, like when I was a young teenager and I'd heard a couple of women preach, and it.

00:27:30:05 - 00:27:36:10
Jess Quak
Was looking back, it was terrible. And I thought.

00:27:36:10 - 00:27:37:15
Dave Quak
So at the time. I'm like, wow.

00:27:37:15 - 00:27:41:09
Jess Quak
This is really terrible preaching. This is really. Yeah.

00:27:41:11 - 00:27:43:11
Dave Quak
It's kind of like a talk.

00:27:43:11 - 00:27:48:13
Jess Quak
It's it's feel good. It's cringeworthy. I'm not really a girly girl.

00:27:48:13 - 00:27:51:06
Dave Quak
So it really went over my head and I thought.

00:27:51:06 - 00:27:52:00
Jess Quak
Wow, if you're.

00:27:52:00 - 00:28:00:10
Dave Quak
Losing me, you're losing half the people in the room because you're talking about getting your nails done. How many women in the room are getting their nails done? This is.

00:28:00:10 - 00:28:01:04
Jess Quak
Really weird.

00:28:01:08 - 00:28:04:22
Dave Quak
Yeah. And you're an easy sell to, like, you're pretty open.

00:28:04:24 - 00:28:05:09
Jess Quak
Yeah.

00:28:05:09 - 00:28:07:23
Dave Quak
You know what I mean? Yeah. To lose use. Not.

00:28:08:00 - 00:28:08:13
Jess Quak
Yeah.

00:28:08:18 - 00:28:10:24
Dave Quak
So in my head, I was kind of like, wow.

00:28:10:24 - 00:28:11:21
Jess Quak
If I had a choice.

00:28:11:21 - 00:28:19:20
Dave Quak
Then between a man who's going to be preaching the Bible and a woman who's going to be talking about getting a nails done, I'm going to choose a man.

00:28:19:22 - 00:28:20:11
Jess Quak
So I.

00:28:20:11 - 00:28:22:08
Dave Quak
Think maybe that played into it a.

00:28:22:08 - 00:28:25:13
Jess Quak
Little bit as well, where I was like, oh, like.

00:28:25:13 - 00:28:26:08
Dave Quak
I don't want to be.

00:28:26:08 - 00:28:28:13
Jess Quak
That experience for.

00:28:28:13 - 00:28:29:13
Dave Quak
Someone where they're like.

00:28:29:13 - 00:28:30:00
Jess Quak
I don't.

00:28:30:00 - 00:28:30:07
Dave Quak
Want.

00:28:30:07 - 00:28:32:13
Jess Quak
To have that.

00:28:32:19 - 00:28:37:17
Dave Quak
Yeah, look, and you're not. I don't think they'd be a person in life who would say that. You do.

00:28:37:19 - 00:28:38:23
Dave Quak
Like I.

00:28:39:00 - 00:28:48:20
Dave Quak
Only feminine. Yeah, I like illustrations or whatever. One cool thing is they're starting to be a few women. Just kick it out of the park, man.

00:28:48:20 - 00:28:49:03
Jess Quak
Yeah.

00:28:49:03 - 00:28:52:00
Dave Quak
Who can just handle the world? Oh, God. And drop a bomb.

00:28:52:00 - 00:28:53:15
Jess Quak
Yeah, and there are plenty.

00:28:53:15 - 00:28:54:12
Dave Quak
And it's amazing.

00:28:54:12 - 00:28:58:09
Jess Quak
It was just because those were the experiences that I had had.

00:28:58:11 - 00:28:58:16
Dave Quak
A.

00:28:58:16 - 00:28:59:04
Jess Quak
Bicycle.

00:28:59:07 - 00:29:02:21
Dave Quak
Because I grew up in a denomination where women weren't leaders and ministers.

00:29:02:21 - 00:29:03:18
Jess Quak
So it it didn't.

00:29:03:18 - 00:29:06:09
Dave Quak
Even really seem like an option.

00:29:06:12 - 00:29:08:04
Jess Quak
To me. So.

00:29:08:04 - 00:29:09:04
Dave Quak
I think for me, there's.

00:29:09:04 - 00:29:09:22
Jess Quak
That.

00:29:09:24 - 00:29:13:02
Dave Quak
Mental game and, and there was at one point.

00:29:13:02 - 00:29:14:00
Jess Quak
Where we had.

00:29:14:00 - 00:29:15:19
Dave Quak
A,

00:29:15:21 - 00:29:18:22
Jess Quak
It was a beautiful thing that.

00:29:18:24 - 00:29:20:01
Dave Quak
The denomination.

00:29:20:01 - 00:29:21:19
Jess Quak
Put together where it was.

00:29:21:21 - 00:29:23:14
Dave Quak
Women ministers.

00:29:23:14 - 00:29:24:04
Jess Quak
Gathering.

00:29:24:05 - 00:29:26:22
Dave Quak
Together to support one another in ministry.

00:29:26:22 - 00:29:28:02
Jess Quak
Because.

00:29:28:04 - 00:29:29:20
Dave Quak
Knowing that.

00:29:29:22 - 00:29:31:14
Jess Quak
There are less of us.

00:29:31:16 - 00:29:34:11
Dave Quak
And so, to create networks.

00:29:34:11 - 00:29:34:20
Jess Quak
Where.

00:29:34:20 - 00:29:35:20
Dave Quak
You can have.

00:29:35:20 - 00:29:41:15
Jess Quak
Those discussions. Yeah. About like, oh, so it is a little bit different, you know, how awkward.

00:29:41:15 - 00:29:45:06
Dave Quak
Is it when you're in the middle of preaching and suddenly you feel like you might be getting your period.

00:29:45:06 - 00:29:51:21
Jess Quak
Or something? You can't have that conversation. You can't have that conversation with men. It's like the worst thing that can happen.

00:29:51:23 - 00:29:54:18
Dave Quak
What's and use? We'll talk about that in the where we would.

00:29:54:20 - 00:29:58:04
Jess Quak
We never actually did. At least you've got that. But there's that space.

00:29:58:04 - 00:29:58:18
Dave Quak
Where someone can.

00:29:58:18 - 00:30:01:24
Jess Quak
Be like, oh, that's the worst.

00:30:02:01 - 00:30:02:16
Dave Quak
Without being.

00:30:02:16 - 00:30:04:05
Jess Quak
Gross. That's disgusting.

00:30:04:08 - 00:30:06:02
Dave Quak
Woman stuff.

00:30:06:04 - 00:30:07:04
Dave Quak
Yeah.

00:30:07:06 - 00:30:09:13
Dave Quak
But for me.

00:30:09:13 - 00:30:13:17
Jess Quak
I think that felt a little bit like I had always felt like.

00:30:13:17 - 00:30:14:18
Dave Quak
One of the.

00:30:14:18 - 00:30:15:08
Jess Quak
Crew.

00:30:15:12 - 00:30:18:08
Dave Quak
Until that happened, and then it felt.

00:30:18:08 - 00:30:21:12
Jess Quak
Like.

00:30:21:14 - 00:30:24:20
Dave Quak
Okay, maybe I'm not one of.

00:30:24:20 - 00:30:25:00
Jess Quak
The.

00:30:25:00 - 00:30:31:14
Dave Quak
Crew. I'm a woman minister now instead of just a minister. Yeah. And so that then put a little.

00:30:31:14 - 00:30:32:03
Jess Quak
Bit more pressure.

00:30:32:03 - 00:30:34:02
Dave Quak
So for me, for my mental health.

00:30:34:02 - 00:30:35:13
Jess Quak
I actually had to take a bit of a step.

00:30:35:13 - 00:30:37:16
Dave Quak
Back from that, because.

00:30:37:16 - 00:30:38:09
Jess Quak
It was starting to.

00:30:38:09 - 00:30:40:14
Dave Quak
Shift my perspective in an unhealthy way.

00:30:40:14 - 00:30:45:09
Jess Quak
And put that pressure on me. That is the exact opposite.

00:30:45:11 - 00:30:47:14
Dave Quak
Of what it was trying to achieve.

00:30:47:16 - 00:30:52:14
Jess Quak
But I just had to be really aware of that.

00:30:52:16 - 00:30:53:19
Dave Quak
And so it's not.

00:30:53:19 - 00:30:54:24
Jess Quak
Like I stopped getting.

00:30:54:24 - 00:30:57:20
Dave Quak
Support and networking with other women or anything like.

00:30:57:20 - 00:31:00:06
Jess Quak
That. It was just so this particular thing, I had to step back.

00:31:00:06 - 00:31:01:02
Dave Quak
For a minute.

00:31:01:04 - 00:31:05:23
Jess Quak
Yeah, because of where I was at. So it was it, I mean.

00:31:06:00 - 00:31:09:10
Dave Quak
Mental health is a funny thing. And that.

00:31:09:16 - 00:31:10:05
Jess Quak
Plays in.

00:31:10:05 - 00:31:11:01
Dave Quak
In so many.

00:31:11:01 - 00:31:20:04
Jess Quak
Different ways and in different seasons and different people with different insecurities or different.

00:31:20:06 - 00:31:22:09
Dave Quak
Strengths or weaknesses, and it's.

00:31:22:09 - 00:31:24:10
Jess Quak
Really being in.

00:31:24:10 - 00:31:25:07
Dave Quak
Tune with.

00:31:25:07 - 00:31:25:17
Jess Quak
What.

00:31:25:20 - 00:31:30:00
Dave Quak
Is going on in yourself and, and making sure you're staying on.

00:31:30:00 - 00:31:31:12
Jess Quak
Top of it.

00:31:31:14 - 00:31:32:17
Dave Quak
And so making sure.

00:31:32:17 - 00:31:38:10
Jess Quak
That, yeah, you know, always comes back to that, going back to God and thinking.

00:31:38:12 - 00:31:57:22
Dave Quak
And that's when the spiritual practices as well as so important. Yeah. Like at the moment I know you're still coming off a high from all the practicing the white stuff. And it's still informing how you live. Yeah. You know, your spiritual practices. What would what do you think your ministry kind of grace would be like without them?

00:31:57:24 - 00:31:59:21
Jess Quak
No.

00:31:59:23 - 00:32:01:01
Dave Quak
Really not good.

00:32:01:06 - 00:32:03:00
Jess Quak
I think.

00:32:03:02 - 00:32:04:09
Dave Quak
For me particularly.

00:32:04:09 - 00:32:08:24
Jess Quak
I find it. I mean, it is difficult for.

00:32:08:24 - 00:32:11:18
Dave Quak
Anyone in any.

00:32:11:18 - 00:32:12:19
Jess Quak
Job.

00:32:12:21 - 00:32:13:22
Dave Quak
Wearing multiple.

00:32:13:22 - 00:32:14:23
Jess Quak
Hats.

00:32:15:00 - 00:32:20:05
Dave Quak
So being mum and pastor and wife, as well as friend and.

00:32:20:05 - 00:32:21:19
Jess Quak
Daughter and sister and.

00:32:21:21 - 00:32:24:19
Dave Quak
And all those things,

00:32:24:21 - 00:32:26:14
Jess Quak
I've had stages, especially.

00:32:26:14 - 00:32:27:12
Dave Quak
Early on when I didn't.

00:32:27:12 - 00:32:31:08
Jess Quak
Do that so well when I just did.

00:32:31:08 - 00:32:32:11
Dave Quak
Too much.

00:32:32:11 - 00:32:33:12
Jess Quak
And so.

00:32:33:12 - 00:32:34:19
Dave Quak
For me.

00:32:34:21 - 00:32:37:04
Jess Quak
I've had to learn really.

00:32:37:06 - 00:32:39:19
Dave Quak
And particularly even.

00:32:39:21 - 00:32:41:10
Jess Quak
Just sort of break the whole.

00:32:41:10 - 00:32:41:23
Dave Quak
Narrative.

00:32:41:23 - 00:32:45:00
Jess Quak
Of, you can have it all, you can do it more.

00:32:45:00 - 00:32:48:04
Dave Quak
You can, you know.

00:32:48:06 - 00:32:49:01
Jess Quak
This should be your.

00:32:49:01 - 00:32:50:07
Dave Quak
Expectation of what your.

00:32:50:07 - 00:32:55:12
Jess Quak
Life should look like at this stage. All those sorts of things just shut out all of that noise because it is noise.

00:32:55:18 - 00:32:57:12
Dave Quak
Noise.

00:32:57:14 - 00:33:00:13
Jess Quak
You just go back to God and.

00:33:00:15 - 00:33:01:17
Dave Quak
Yeah, for me.

00:33:01:18 - 00:33:11:07
Jess Quak
To listen to him. Okay. What do you need me to do today? Today is what I've got. This is what I have to work with.

00:33:11:10 - 00:33:13:06
Dave Quak
What are we doing? Good.

00:33:13:08 - 00:33:14:14
Jess Quak
Let's do that.

00:33:14:16 - 00:33:18:23
Dave Quak
And doing that well and shutting out all the other stuff.

00:33:18:23 - 00:33:19:12
Dave Quak
Yeah.

00:33:19:14 - 00:33:20:04
Jess Quak
Yeah.

00:33:20:06 - 00:33:36:07
Dave Quak
No, I think that's awesome. It's got to be the anchor. Otherwise, we're both cactus, you know, like. Yeah, yeah. If, as we start to kind of wine towards the end, if there's a couple of young ladies in the room ready to just launch.

00:33:36:12 - 00:33:37:02
Dave Quak
Yeah.

00:33:37:04 - 00:33:56:16
Dave Quak
And they were all in different stages. We're in a church where they are about to be celebrated somewhere in the state, in the church where they're about to be tolerated somewhere, like, you know, just sneak in through the door. What's the generic wisdom that actually lands on anyone as a female in ministry?

00:33:56:18 - 00:33:58:23
Dave Quak
Yeah.

00:33:59:00 - 00:34:06:01
Jess Quak
I think it's just laid like Jesus just washing feet, just loving.

00:34:06:01 - 00:34:10:13
Dave Quak
Well, just being generous of spirit.

00:34:10:15 - 00:34:13:01
Jess Quak
Being compassionate. Yeah.

00:34:13:03 - 00:34:18:01
Dave Quak
Loving those who don't agree with you. That's ultimately.

00:34:18:01 - 00:34:19:04
Jess Quak
What we're all.

00:34:19:06 - 00:34:21:24
Dave Quak
They're doing. He's becoming more like him. And as.

00:34:21:24 - 00:34:22:12
Jess Quak
A leader.

00:34:22:12 - 00:34:27:09
Dave Quak
Even more so. And there'll be different challenges for different people. And yeah.

00:34:27:11 - 00:34:30:00
Jess Quak
That's okay. IT Ministry is.

00:34:30:00 - 00:34:32:14
Dave Quak
Going to be challenging. Any job is.

00:34:32:14 - 00:34:33:15
Jess Quak
Going to be challenging.

00:34:33:15 - 00:34:35:00
Dave Quak
Life is challenging.

00:34:35:02 - 00:34:36:00
Jess Quak
Yeah. This side of.

00:34:36:00 - 00:34:37:00
Dave Quak
Eternity.

00:34:37:02 - 00:34:37:16
Jess Quak
It's just.

00:34:37:16 - 00:34:39:07
Dave Quak
About the mindset that you have when you.

00:34:39:07 - 00:34:42:05
Jess Quak
Face it. Are you going to do it like Jesus or he's going to try.

00:34:42:05 - 00:34:50:01
Dave Quak
And climb this mountain? Stake claim on your own, build your own kingdom and full

00:34:50:03 - 00:34:50:10
Jess Quak
If you're.

00:34:50:10 - 00:34:50:22
Dave Quak
Loving like.

00:34:50:22 - 00:34:51:14
Jess Quak
Jesus and.

00:34:51:14 - 00:34:54:04
Dave Quak
You're coming before him at the end of the day and he's happy.

00:34:54:04 - 00:34:54:13
Jess Quak
With what.

00:34:54:13 - 00:34:56:18
Dave Quak
You've done, and you can.

00:34:56:20 - 00:35:00:10
Jess Quak
Feel like.

00:35:00:12 - 00:35:02:01
Dave Quak
Content.

00:35:02:03 - 00:35:12:04
Jess Quak
With that being the goal that you achieve, that's a blessed life. Yeah.

00:35:12:06 - 00:35:19:09
Dave Quak
Jessica Quek lots of wisdom, lots of love. Will you close out our discussion with praying for our crew.

00:35:19:11 - 00:35:22:24
Jess Quak
And yes I would love to.

00:35:23:01 - 00:35:25:04
Dave Quak
Heavenly father, I thank you so much.

00:35:25:04 - 00:35:33:06
Jess Quak
That you have such a great love for people. I thank you for each person listening today.

00:35:33:06 - 00:35:34:00
Dave Quak
And that you.

00:35:34:00 - 00:35:34:16
Jess Quak
Have.

00:35:34:18 - 00:35:35:20
Dave Quak
Their journey mapped.

00:35:35:20 - 00:35:38:22
Jess Quak
Out, and that each step of the way you're teaching.

00:35:38:22 - 00:35:41:08
Dave Quak
And guiding and.

00:35:41:10 - 00:35:52:07
Jess Quak
Shaping and you, so, so very close. You are with us, Lord. And I ask that for the listeners today that you would help them.

00:35:52:07 - 00:35:53:04
Dave Quak
Turn their eyes to.

00:35:53:04 - 00:35:54:14
Jess Quak
You.

00:35:54:16 - 00:35:58:22
Dave Quak
That you would help them see your guiding hand.

00:35:58:24 - 00:35:59:12
Jess Quak
That you would.

00:35:59:12 - 00:36:01:00
Dave Quak
Help them to lean on.

00:36:01:00 - 00:36:06:09
Jess Quak
You and to lean into you for.

00:36:06:11 - 00:36:07:15
Dave Quak
Everything they need.

00:36:07:20 - 00:36:08:19
Jess Quak
As well as direction.

00:36:08:19 - 00:36:09:01
Dave Quak
Going.

00:36:09:01 - 00:36:12:14
Jess Quak
Forward. How to love others well, how to.

00:36:12:14 - 00:36:13:15
Dave Quak
Be content with.

00:36:13:15 - 00:36:14:14
Jess Quak
Your pleasure for.

00:36:14:14 - 00:36:22:18
Dave Quak
Them and them. Yeah, may you bless them. This in this time.

00:36:22:20 - 00:36:24:08
Jess Quak
In Jesus name, Amen.