Women in Leadership with Jess Quak and Maddy Mandall: Navigating Faith, Ministry, and Mental Health (Part 1 and 2)

PART 1

Well, welcome to SUNBURNT SOULS on the show. We speak about life and faith and our mental well-being. And this week we're actually having a special episode because last week we started by doing a session with the one and only Jessica Kwak about women in leadership and the mental health implications of that. Anyway, it got some good traction and people commented, and one of the best insights came from an awesome woman called Maddie Mendel.

00:00:26:04 - 00:00:32:13
Dave Quak 
So we've asked Maddie to join Jess and I for this week's episode of Sundance. Also, Maddie. Welcome to the episode.

00:00:32:14 - 00:00:33:17
Maddy Mandell
Thank you so much.

00:00:33:18 - 00:00:35:08
Dave Quak 
Thank you for coming down.

00:00:35:09 - 00:00:36:00
Maddy Mandell
Not a worry

00:00:36:06 - 00:01:00:23
Dave Quak 
So, Maddie Mendel, just before we get into it, I have to tell you that I'm jealous. Okay. Because for one year, I've been chasing Kay Warren for an interview. So I emailed, and I did all the steps. I googled how to get an interview with someone. If you don't know, K Warren, Rick Warren, and Kay Warren, one of the, you know, the most influential places in the world.

00:01:01:00 - 00:01:12:24
Dave Quak 
They lost a son to suicide, sadly. And she speaks all over the world on mental wellbeing stuff. Anyway, I've been chasing a couldn't get past the gatekeeper. Mic minute, I get on the, on the socials and see you just.

00:01:12:24 - 00:01:15:00
Maddy Mandell
I just fell into it casually.

00:01:15:00 - 00:01:18:01
Dave Quak 
Just checking in with came over and had that happen.

00:01:18:03 - 00:01:38:08
Maddy Mandell
Just recently we had the Baptist World Congress, so Baptist from all over the globe ended up in, in Brisbane. In my little city, our, you know, our home state. And, Kay Warren was one of the speakers at the big main Congress, but also at a next gen leaders summit that that I was a part of as well.

00:01:38:10 - 00:01:53:14
Maddy Mandell
And so, yeah, she did like a little, you know, Ted talk style, talk there and then, an elective breakout session as well. And I was sort of hosting her during that portion. So, yeah, it went out and movement was like, oh, we'd love to get into K. Can we tee that up while she's here? Yeah.

00:01:53:16 - 00:02:09:06
Maddy Mandell
So it was a really last minute. I was literally just talking face to face with her. So that's probably how it happened. And then. Yeah, got to have a little bit of a tutorial there. So yeah. Yeah, she was there with K. So it was literally just like, oh do you have a spare 30 minutes in the next two days?

00:02:09:06 - 00:02:20:12
Maddy Mandell
We would love to do this. So it was, it was yeah, a little bit impromptu, which is probably what helped. But yeah, it was it was beautiful to see her in action. She was so loving and so grace filled.

00:02:20:14 - 00:02:25:06
Dave Quak 
You interviewed well, like you held your own with one of the most prominent pastors on the planet.

00:02:25:07 - 00:02:28:12
Maddy Mandell
She was such a. Yeah. She was just such a humble woman.

00:02:28:16 - 00:02:37:24
Dave Quak 
She's cool. Yeah. Yeah, that's the PR that I couldn't get past. Now she was clean because she said no. And I sent back, saying, what could I do to get this.

00:02:38:01 - 00:02:39:01
Maddy Mandell
Over the line?

00:02:39:03 - 00:02:41:21
Dave Quak 
She actually sent back a really generous email with all these pointers and said.

00:02:41:21 - 00:02:43:18
Jess Quak 
Oh, that's so good. I'm happy.

00:02:43:18 - 00:02:44:03
Dave Quak 
For you.

00:02:44:04 - 00:02:44:19
Maddy Mandell
Yes. No.

00:02:44:19 - 00:02:47:24
Dave Quak 
Yeah, yeah. Maddie, tell us about your role. What do you do?

00:02:48:01 - 00:03:16:10
Maddy Mandell
So at the moment, I work with, the Queensland State Baptists. Mason that the leadership development space. So helping our leaders grow in health in schools, it, you know, and that that's everything from, younger emerging leaders all the way through to our pastors as well, and ongoing development for them. I am a pastor where I just did pasta and have been doing that in the local church in the past.

00:03:16:12 - 00:03:25:21
Maddy Mandell
But yeah, now I get this beautiful privilege of being able to work with churches and leaders all across the state of Queensland, helping them grow, basically. Yeah.

00:03:26:00 - 00:03:43:10
Dave Quak 
Yeah. So really cool. And last week, you were really generous with your comments. To Jess and I, particularly to Jess, about our conversation, what's being a female pastor in our movement or even just in general, like for you? And then and also for you, Jess, you feel free to weigh in as well.

00:03:43:14 - 00:04:10:06
Jess Quak 
Yeah. I mean, I feel like I've already shared quite a bit, but it's good to see because not every whether you're a woman or a man, your path in leadership and your discipleship and your growth is going to look different from someone else. So I think it's definitely worthwhile hearing other views even within this space. I think particularly because it is so different for each person.

00:04:10:08 - 00:04:11:04
Maddy Mandell
Yeah. Yeah.

00:04:11:04 - 00:04:12:23
Dave Quak 
So what was it like for humanity?

00:04:13:00 - 00:04:35:09
Maddy Mandell
Yeah. Well, I, you know, it's the fact that I am a woman and I am called to ministry. Like, it's definitely been, an undeniable kind of undergirding thing, I guess, from day one. Really. I, felt a call to ministry and wanted to go to college from, a pretty young age as well. And the first Christian in my family came to faith at 15.

00:04:35:11 - 00:04:59:03
Maddy Mandell
And from about 18, I sort of felt this call to, to ministry and all the rest of it, and express that in my, my church community and didn't get told no. Got told. Not yet. Which was like probably the only tension I've ever really thrown in my life, which so far wasn't very dramatic, but, you know, and I thought, okay, that's fine.

00:04:59:03 - 00:05:15:00
Maddy Mandell
I, went on to do another degree at university. I was still so young in the face, so new to church. Realistically, I had a lot of learning and growing. I could do, but even in that period of time, I watched a lot of other young guys the exact same age as me. Not looking very different at all.

00:05:15:00 - 00:05:38:21
Maddy Mandell
Then they got they just got an absolute free pass. They got sent off to Bible College. They were allowed to go and do the things that I'd been told. No. And, I don't begrudge the leaders that that told me to wait for that. I think I think they probably was a part of their logic where they really wanted to make sure that I was serious about this, and that I was really sure that this was what God was saying to me, because they they anticipated some of the challenge that might come along with that, I guess.

00:05:38:23 - 00:06:09:10
Maddy Mandell
And when the time finally came that I was able to step into that a little bit more and stepped into more formal leadership and got to go to college. It did really feel like a gift. I was still very young, but I had grown up a little bit. And so even from those really early stages, like, I guess this there's been something about being a woman in, in church leadership for me that it's just kind of often been an element of lack, a bit of a question mark or a bit of an extra hurdle or, you know, like something there that that is that extra kind of catch.

00:06:09:10 - 00:06:28:10
Maddy Mandell
You've got to wade through or push through or, you know, whatever that might look like along the way. And that's, you know, that's been an ongoing theme in one way or another over the years. That was a bit of it over ten years ago now. But yeah, along the way, God's always really faithful.

00:06:28:15 - 00:06:29:17
Dave Quak 
Yeah.

00:06:29:19 - 00:06:53:22
Jess Quak 
Did you also find. Because I know for myself, I one conversation I got really sick of was the should women be in ministry conversation and simply by being in the room, that conversation came up. Yeah. So often, and it is the place where people are coming to, you know, filter through. What am I really thinking?

00:06:53:22 - 00:07:22:13
Jess Quak 
What does the Bible really say? What are these different perspectives? Some people just had an agenda. Yeah. And other people were like, not very gracious about answering that question either. How did you find going from especially a non-Christian home where this probably wasn't much of a discussion at all? Yeah. From home. Yeah. To then that environment.

00:07:22:16 - 00:07:23:14
Jess Quak 


00:07:23:16 - 00:07:50:08
Maddy Mandell
Yeah. Absolutely. I, I definitely realized I was on a thing in my house at all. I came from what you would probably consider, I guess, a bit of a liberal kind of generally left leaning family. My dad has a shirt that says the Future is female on it equals good. Yeah, yeah. So, you know, stepping into the church, I guess I did start to pick up, I suppose, maybe more subconsciously than anything else about what seems kind of builds dynamic here.

00:07:50:10 - 00:08:14:11
Maddy Mandell
Our church had women in, senior leadership, but, no women were called pastors. No women preach. So, like, it was more of this subconscious kind of figuring it out. And so it was still something that as I sort of realized, oh, this is a question in this part of the world, what do I do? And, you know, just reading Scripture yourself, and you come across this passage like, oh, what does this mean?

00:08:14:11 - 00:08:38:10
Maddy Mandell
Like that's at face value. That's a little bit confronting. So I had to go on that journey myself. I didn't want to just take, you know, maybe where I'd been or the like, the family culture I'd been a part of or what the world would sort of say and take that as gospel. I did have to do the big wrestle myself, and get very well versed with, you know, both extremes of, of the debate and everything in between.

00:08:38:12 - 00:08:58:14
Maddy Mandell
Which in and of itself is an incredibly exhausting, painful thing to do when you're also kind of grappling with this call at the same time. You're like, I feel like I know what God is saying to me, but I'm trying to reconcile it with everything else. But it also meant that I that was happening at a bit more of a, explicit level in the church community I was a part of, too.

00:08:58:15 - 00:09:24:21
Maddy Mandell
You know, I came on staff as a coordinator, when I stepped into that more full responsibility and, you know, did did college over the next few years and all the while, you know. Yeah. Kind of cradling this cold to pastoral ministry, and just kept, you know, sort of not not not questioning or demanding, but just articulating that to leadership, like, just everyone remembers, like, this is what I feel called to.

00:09:24:23 - 00:09:43:19
Maddy Mandell
And I'm heading towards a point where you know, in some sense, I've kind of ticked all the boxes. And so is there anything stopping us? So our church ended up actually going through, a pretty extensive black, 12 month long discernment process together. There was two women on staff at that point about whether we would be called pastors.

00:09:43:21 - 00:10:03:04
Maddy Mandell
And, and I'm looking back, I'm, I'm so proud of the way that process was done. The leadership was so they were so wise and they were so honoring. And it was really difficult, for for me, I was I was young and, you know, for everybody looking at you in a season like that and saying, oh, it's not personal.

00:10:03:04 - 00:10:07:14
Maddy Mandell
It's not personal. We're just working through the question. Okay. But it is a.

00:10:07:14 - 00:10:08:18
Jess Quak 
Little bit personal.

00:10:08:19 - 00:10:09:18
Dave Quak 
Since I'm the person.

00:10:09:18 - 00:10:29:14
Maddy Mandell
I'm the person, and I could be the one that ends up, you know, not with the job at the end of this. And as much as people are working through the theology and what does Scripture say? Like you're also the example that pinning to that and trying to, you know, like, oh, if this is what's in front of us right now, that's what we're reading in Scripture.

00:10:29:16 - 00:10:41:03
Maddy Mandell
It is still pretty real. And so, that's pray the biggest example and season I had of that conversation being had live. And you're kind of like the case study.

00:10:41:05 - 00:10:41:09
Jess Quak 
Of.

00:10:41:09 - 00:11:16:02
Maddy Mandell
What that looks like. And but you know. Yeah, on on smaller scales that that happens a lot. I'm grateful. That's probably less of a conversation I'm having explicitly with people these days. But it certainly still comes off. And, you know, more often than not, I'm probably I'm having it now with other young women who are facing that in their immediate contexts and helping them process through themselves, but also how to carry themselves, and how to protect themselves and their mental health and their heart when they're navigating that in community as well.

00:11:16:02 - 00:11:19:19
Maddy Mandell
Because I yeah. No, it's it's a bit of a mental battlefield.

00:11:19:21 - 00:11:25:14
Dave Quak 
Met matter. You're mentoring the project. 11 people still. And so there's a bunch of ladies coming through that.

00:11:25:14 - 00:11:25:22
Maddy Mandell
Yeah.

00:11:25:22 - 00:11:36:01
Dave Quak 
Well what do you gauge as some of the mental wellbeing hurdles you mentioned mental health just and no without breaking confidence, what are they coming up to you for the side chats about.

00:11:36:03 - 00:11:56:19
Maddy Mandell
Yeah. So for those who don't know, project 11 is like an emerging leadership development course, I guess. But it also happens in local communities with lots of practical ministry staff. And, it's been going for a few years now, but pretty consistently every year we have had it's it's almost been identical at about sort of like 55% women, 45% guys.

00:11:56:19 - 00:12:19:08
Maddy Mandell
So like, you know, ratio wise, it's actually almost evenly split. And those young women, I guess, that are coming through, they're sitting at all different levels. The majority of like, you know, feel a lot like overwhelming majority of those are not necessarily looking at jumping into like vocational pastoral ministry, but they're really passionate about the church and serving the kingdom.

00:12:19:08 - 00:12:46:23
Maddy Mandell
And whatever that looks like, that come from a whole variety of, of churches as well. You know, I know you guys spoke a little bit last week. We've got a diverse range of beliefs on this in Queensland. And so, you know, they they all come from very different circumstances. But those that I guess maybe in sort of, you know, might be heading up ministries or like looking at possibly going to some kind of pastoral ministry, I think.

00:12:46:23 - 00:13:11:00
Maddy Mandell
Yeah, they're definitely, they are grappling with, I've got to be able to make sure that this is like stance theologically for me, you know, that kind of thing as well. And that, that I do think is it that's difficult mentally because you're reading a lot of content and taking a lot of stuff in that can feel like a bit of a knife to the gut as well?

00:13:11:02 - 00:13:31:00
Maddy Mandell
There also, I think there's a big element of there are often leading up, whether they're, you know, so you've got somebody who's heading up, a kids ministry or something in their church. They'll have volunteers of both genders, of all ages. You know, some people that have been like teaching Sunday school longer than they've been alive.

00:13:31:03 - 00:13:52:06
Maddy Mandell
Yeah. You know, some they think. Yeah, yeah. And on their teams. And how do they work with that. And there's a huge there's, there's really significant power dynamics that go on in those relationships. And and they're an, a big emotional load. I think that constantly comes from figuring out like, how do you navigate that? And hold on one hand, yeah, I'm young or but I know I'm cold.

00:13:52:08 - 00:14:11:02
Maddy Mandell
And how do I honor people but also stand firm in the fact that I feel like God's called me to lead in this space. What does that look like? That's that's often a conversation I have with lots of of young women of like. Yeah, yeah. And, and, you know, particularly when that might come to a point where I don't feel like I, I maybe am being respected or there's a bit of conflict in this space.

00:14:11:02 - 00:14:34:14
Maddy Mandell
And how do I manage all of those things? That can be, that can be difficult to and often just that they might feel like God's put a vision on their heart for something that they've never seen in real life. You know, and at least in a way that looks like them. So I have a lot of conversations with, with young women who, whether I've preached that church or done whatever.

00:14:34:14 - 00:14:52:15
Maddy Mandell
And, and you can just sort of see this, like, ticking over in their brain of like, oh, you kind of look you look more like me than anyone else I've ever seen in a pulpit or in leadership. I'm like, oh, can I do this too? What does it look like for me to do this, too? Yeah.

00:14:52:17 - 00:15:12:17
Dave Quak 
Can you both speak to this reset? Because you both had a similar experience where you felt cold, but there were some hurdles, whether that was structural or whatever, between your calling and you're able to execute that. I have zero experience in that, because anytime I felt cold, I've, I've, I've either had the opportunity to do it or made the opportunity.

00:15:12:21 - 00:15:31:18
Dave Quak 
And there's been no body to be able to stop me. Do you know what I mean? So what's it like for you? For, you know, women coming through in systems where you feel called to something, but they are structural, theological or whatever barriers that actually do stop you, at least for a season.

00:15:31:20 - 00:15:59:03
Jess Quak 
Yeah. It it it's interesting, Mattie, that you pointed out the particular stage of not just being a woman, feeling coaching ministry and learning that way, but a young woman in that space, because I found probably that was one of the most frustrating seasons, and forming for me in ministry as well, because I unfortunately also had where I looked very young.

00:15:59:03 - 00:16:26:15
Jess Quak 
Yeah, even when I was young. So, it was a really interesting dynamic of watching the way that different people would react to me. And, I eventually came to see and to learn that how people are responding to me as a Christian, thinking maybe like I'm this young girl who doesn't know anything. To an extent that was true.

00:16:26:15 - 00:16:49:24
Jess Quak 
And I had to, like, humble myself and be like, yeah, well, I actually do have a lot to learn. And there are things that these older people can teach me. But at the same time, you're showing me and treating me this way. More about your own character. If you aren't willing to learn from me just because I am of a different gender or because I'm younger than you, that speaks to something about your own character.

00:16:50:01 - 00:16:53:08
Jess Quak 
And that sort of.

00:16:53:10 - 00:17:22:06
Jess Quak 
Helped me to just really ground myself in where I'm standing before God. I need to have integrity in the way that I live. And, just keep on being here. Just keep showing up. Just keep loving Jesus. Just keep being obedient and he will show these people eventually who I am. And if they're not going to see it because of whatever prejudice they may have, they're not going to see it.

00:17:22:06 - 00:17:52:23
Jess Quak 
And that's up to him to change hearts, to change minds. And that's a really difficult hurdle. But I found that that was a really significant formation element that I needed for leadership for the rest of my leadership, and I think everyone will need to go through that at some phase of their leadership. And for some, like maybe for a minute, it might be when they're getting older or something and people like, oh, you're getting into an older man, you're no longer relevant because you're older or something.

00:17:53:00 - 00:18:13:11
Jess Quak 
I don't know. But for women, it seems to be that sort of stage. So, yeah, that for me, I think was a massive hurdle. But it was a really good for me. Moment.

00:18:13:13 - 00:18:41:19
Maddy Mandell
Yeah. I definitely experienced a lot of that too. I think. And it I like don't think I did it. Well I thought realistically like years of there's a lot I experience, a lot of imposter syndrome along the lines of, you know dealing with that. Like I again, I think, I don't know, maybe if I'd had more women around me, they might have they might have seen some of that insecurity and that a bond syndrome maybe been able to come out of a little bit.

00:18:41:19 - 00:19:04:15
Maddy Mandell
But I wasn't very good in those areas of ministry at at like differentiating myself as well. My like, I let my, my ministry or like the way that people were perceiving me in ministry become identity. In a lot of ways. And like become way more of a defining feature than it probably should have been as well.

00:19:04:15 - 00:19:21:16
Maddy Mandell
Which, like eventually I had a point where I went through a season of, you know, like capital B burnout as well, and had to recover through that. And we can talk about that more if we want. But I certainly went through those sorts of experience as well. But the flip side of it being, yeah, it is super formation and and even though it.

00:19:21:16 - 00:19:40:06
Maddy Mandell
Yeah, I feel like I went to like big dip, like to do all of that on the other side. But God in his grace redeems so much of that suffering. Men, you know, and brings lots of healing. But yeah, like you did, you do come out on the other side of that. I think I like it in the midst of all of that.

00:19:40:06 - 00:19:58:04
Maddy Mandell
You are. You are holding so tightly to a calling like, you have to be so sure about that for sure. Yeah. When you when you're facing all these, whether it's structural, whatever, like hurdles you have to be so sure, or as you walk away from it and, and sadly many women do. And that's not because I don't have enough faith or because they're being disobedient to God.

00:19:58:04 - 00:20:13:14
Maddy Mandell
It's really, really hard to stay. You just run out of steam. Yeah. And so many women do. But yeah, like, if you can hold on to it because, yeah, you know, like, this is not easy. Do this and I'm going to stick at it no matter how hard it might be. And, and there is some blessing in that.

00:20:13:14 - 00:20:14:15
Maddy Mandell
Yeah. As well.

00:20:14:19 - 00:20:16:13
Dave Quak 
Can you tell us about the burnout.

00:20:16:15 - 00:20:59:18
Maddy Mandell
Yeah. So I had been it was sort of after this sort of first big season ministering, going to Bible college and also this big, journey that our church had been doing. And there were lots there were lots of factors that played into it, for sure. But, I do think that that that kind of constant, like a mental battlefield of not feeling, fully supported by your, community at large, even though, like, you know, the majority of people were supportive, but that just that constant question mark and, and, and juggling through the weight of like, oh, I don't want to be the person who causes division in that

00:20:59:18 - 00:21:23:03
Maddy Mandell
community I don't like this is important enough to me that I think we need to do this journey. But what if people leave our church over this or whatever? And I was 25 ish, like, I was, you know, really young. And so I ended up taking a season, season off, and I, and I stepped away from, that role in that church community that I've been a part of, which was huge.

00:21:23:03 - 00:21:48:15
Maddy Mandell
I'd been at that church for 12 years. I'd been on staff for a little bit over five. So it was a really big shift, newly married, you know, like the whole the whole thing. I was still doing a bit of study and working part time somewhere else, but I, I really think it was a season where, I'd just gotten to a point where, like, God had to God had to strip it away so that I could do a lot of that identity work and, and process things for and just take care of my health again.

00:21:48:15 - 00:22:07:23
Maddy Mandell
So, you know, meet with my GP. That was when I did end up on medication for a little while there as well. See, my psychologist regularly and then just getting back on top of, you know, the diet and the excess. So like it it was a season where I did, take space. And I'm so grateful that I could take the space.

00:22:07:23 - 00:22:33:20
Maddy Mandell
I had an incredible husband who was supporting me and and all the rest of it, but I could take that step back to really kind of holistically look at look at health again, everything from from mental to physical and social and how those things were playing together. And I did keep praying that like, you know, like was at that point in the beginning, especially where you just kind of Bailey functioning and everything feels really numb and you don't know what what is often like.

00:22:33:22 - 00:22:44:03
Maddy Mandell
And, you know, in that moment to being like, well, I, I definitely had a moment of being like, I screwed it up and I'm a woman, so that might be it. Maybe, maybe, maybe I blew my.

00:22:44:03 - 00:22:44:19
Jess Quak 
Shot and.

00:22:45:00 - 00:23:10:06
Maddy Mandell
And that's it. But yeah, handing that over to God, I guess, and literally just taking it a day at a time, sometimes an hour at a time. And praying. My prayer was like, I just had never felt so lost and so loud in my life. But asking God to in however, you know, however, he could bring redemption to that and blessing to that and flourishing to that, that that might be an equal measure.

00:23:10:07 - 00:23:27:12
Maddy Mandell
I didn't know when, I didn't know how that was going to be possible. But but to do that and yet it was a, a long journey. And I certainly live my life very differently now, which is, you know, a healthy and a good thing. But, you know, you live your life differently in light of seasons like that.

00:23:27:14 - 00:23:29:23
Dave Quak 
Was that medication and antidepressant?

00:23:30:00 - 00:23:50:01
Maddy Mandell
Yeah. Anti-anxiety antidepressant kind of medication for a while there, too. And then that was that was seasonal for me. I came up that eventually and and it certainly wasn't a lark. I didn't go out. It wasn't one of those like, you know, flipped a switch and felt really great. But, you know, my, my, my GP at the time described it like sometimes it's just like you're standing at a fence and you can't see over the fence.

00:23:50:01 - 00:24:11:02
Maddy Mandell
And this is hopefully just going to be a way to give you a little bit of a step up and you might be able to like, peek over it a little bit more. And so, yeah, I think it's I as I said before, that the mock up that season was it was a whole, yeah, a really holistic, like we're just going to throw everything we can at, at getting back to a place of health again.

00:24:11:02 - 00:24:27:04
Maddy Mandell
And yeah, that included all sorts of different things. So yeah, it was it was a very tough season, but I'm, I, I'm really grateful for the way that I was supported through that from a whole bunch of different people. But then yeah, also being able to come out of that very different.

00:24:27:06 - 00:24:37:02
Dave Quak 
Yeah. It's sort of encouraging that you had the humility to jump on the, an SSRI or whatever for a little while. Yeah. But then also that it wasn't a lifetime sentence.

00:24:37:02 - 00:24:37:15
Maddy Mandell
Yeah.

00:24:37:16 - 00:24:55:10
Dave Quak 
Because I think for some of this medication, for me it's a lifetime because with bipolar it's pretty much lifetime. Bar a miracle. But for some people it is seasonal. And we we should have no guilt about that, especially in the Christian church. But what do you do now to live differently than leading up to the burnout?

00:24:55:12 - 00:25:18:04
Maddy Mandell
I think, you know, on the one hand, this isn't like a super, like a schedule kind of practical thing, but I think a lot of the, the work that I did with the Lord in prayer, but also with my psychologist, I'm working through a lot to kind of, work through some identity stuff. And, you know, what are some of the classic things that draw me into a place where I'm leaning on the wrong things to define me and my identity?

00:25:18:07 - 00:25:34:04
Maddy Mandell
Yeah, that was really helpful. And I do still have moments I like even about about 12 months ago, I had a moment again, where I was feeling stressed about a few different things, and it was my husband. He looked at me and he's like, are you okay? Like, are you? Yeah, yeah. Are you do it like, is it happening again?

00:25:34:04 - 00:25:54:20
Maddy Mandell
Where? Where something is finding you and and and I'm so glad he asked that question and I was I was able in that mode to stop me like no I, I don't like I don't think so. I'm just, I'm just stressed about this like situation that's going on right now. But I, you know, so I guess I could work through some of that stuff, but was but got tools to be able to apply further on.

00:25:54:22 - 00:26:26:13
Maddy Mandell
But I also just, knew that it was important for me that season. My, my support system looks a little bit different now, I guess, as well. I've got all sorts of, you know, different people for different seasons. Amazing husband, great friends. But I also, you know, I have professional supervision and I have, a mentor, you know, and I've seen my psychologist, you know, so little chunks of time, like when I, you know, like, a lot, like, since, you know, since that I was seeing her nonstop for a while throughout the burnout.

00:26:26:13 - 00:26:48:06
Maddy Mandell
But, I've been back for little chunks of time since then as well. And so, you know, yeah, like some of those networks that are, that are ongoing and nonstop, other people that, you know, one of my good friends calls them secret mentors, you know, people who you like, you can call up that don't really know that you see them as like I've been told by and, you know, they're not committed to you, like once a month or whatever, but you know that you can go to them.

00:26:48:06 - 00:27:09:21
Maddy Mandell
So, yeah, the support network thing is something that that definitely looks different now to what it used to as well. And then, you know, and then just the other things of the schedule and rhythms and, you know, I still I'm so glad that my, my physical, the way I exercise, the way I eat is in a much better place now than I probably ever has been in my life.

00:27:09:23 - 00:27:12:01
Maddy Mandell
But all those things are really important and important.

00:27:12:01 - 00:27:18:15
Dave Quak 
Yeah. And like you said, even before, like, eat, sleep and exercise, sometimes it's just such a miracle and it's so obvious, but we don't do it. Yeah.

00:27:18:15 - 00:27:20:12
Maddy Mandell
It's really difficult when you're in a bad place.

00:27:20:16 - 00:27:22:07
Jess Quak 
Yeah. Really hard.

00:27:22:09 - 00:27:26:15
Dave Quak 
Yeah. When you just go to sleep, I wish, but if you've been in my nightmares.

00:27:26:15 - 00:27:27:16
Jess Quak 
For the night.

00:27:27:18 - 00:27:28:10
Maddy Mandell
Exactly.

00:27:28:14 - 00:27:38:19
Dave Quak 
It's interesting material kind of like rhythms of staying, you know, mentally well and spiritually well. A quiet collaborative with people. But, Jess, you're quite an independent soul when it comes to all that.

00:27:38:19 - 00:27:39:08
Jess Quak 
Yeah.

00:27:39:08 - 00:27:40:23
Dave Quak 
So what do you do to stay sane?

00:27:41:01 - 00:27:41:11
Jess Quak 
Yeah.

00:27:41:12 - 00:27:42:21
Dave Quak 
As a pastor.

00:27:42:23 - 00:28:09:15
Jess Quak 
I think, I think I am quite introverted as well. And I really process, like, Dave, you're an external processor, so if Dave's thinking something or working through something, I'll hear about it. And so that's fine. Unfortunately for Dave, he will hear about what I'm processing three months after the fact when I'm like, okay, so he's what I've been processing.

00:28:09:17 - 00:28:11:10
Jess Quak 
This is what I maybe every now.

00:28:11:10 - 00:28:14:24
Dave Quak 
And then she'll just come up to me, go. I've been struggling for the last six months.

00:28:15:01 - 00:28:16:19
Jess Quak 
I could have helped.

00:28:16:21 - 00:28:37:09
Jess Quak 
And like and this is whatever the conclusion I've come to, this is what I've done is what I've put in place. So it's actually been really good for me. I, we do have, mandatory professional supervision, which has been great. And my professional supervisor is incredible. And, so she's great to go. Okay. This is where we were at last time.

00:28:37:09 - 00:29:02:20
Jess Quak 
Where are you at with that now? That sort of stuff. But for me, I need space. I think because, yeah, when I'm with people, I love it. It's great. I love loving people, but I need time and space to myself to recharge. And when I'm not getting enough of that, and especially that one on one time with God, I just feel so depleted.

00:29:02:22 - 00:29:31:10
Jess Quak 
And that's when I start reaching for blocks of chocolate. Just then I feel grace, and then I don't sleep. And then it's it's. Yeah. Yeah, I so yeah, those rhythms and disciplines for me. So for me because we have a full house as well. Like if I'm not up in the morning before everyone unless I'm sleeping in, just getting my own space before everyone gets up.

00:29:31:12 - 00:29:49:08
Jess Quak 
I just feel quite scattered. Because people are asking things of me before I can get a grounded sense of the day. Just little things. Like that, and. Yeah, good time just looking at the stars at night. Every now and again, I'll just be staring at the sky.

00:29:49:10 - 00:29:55:01
Dave Quak 
She knows she stands out there just looking at the sky. Like, you know, you got your garden as well. You go out there.

00:29:55:03 - 00:29:55:19
Jess Quak 
And you get.

00:29:55:24 - 00:29:58:01
Dave Quak 
Herbs and stuff. Yeah.

00:29:58:03 - 00:30:00:06
Jess Quak 
Just getting some some space and.

00:30:00:07 - 00:30:15:11
Maddy Mandell
Yeah, yeah, I'm certainly like I'm an introvert too. And I certainly do. Yeah. Like you'd like every day to have my space where I can sit down with my coffee and read the word and, you know, and like, I retreat usually a couple of times a year. Definitely after big events that have kind of round, but I'll say as needed as well.

00:30:15:12 - 00:30:37:07
Maddy Mandell
But yeah, I think the support network for me has been so important because, I think I just, I realize, oh yeah, the blind spots are bigger than I realized. And so as much as, like, you need all those time. So the support for me came in handy of like, oh, no, I actually need people around me who can, who know me and, like, can help translate whatever's going on for me.

00:30:37:07 - 00:30:45:15
Maddy Mandell
But I can also put in perspective, you know, what's happening, around about as well. So yeah, both sides of that I definitely relate to.

00:30:45:17 - 00:30:47:19
Dave Quak 
Yeah, we really do need each other for that stuff.

00:30:47:19 - 00:31:08:01
Jess Quak 
I like even having people for that accountability of who you need time online. Have you been getting time online? Exactly. Last time I spoke to you, you had it, you know, looking great. Have you had a day off recently and then. Yeah. Having. Yeah. Those people who I. Yeah. You know, who are all for you and love you and I'm willing to say the hot stuff.

00:31:08:06 - 00:31:10:20
Dave Quak 
They can tell you that you look haggard but they do it with a smile.

00:31:10:22 - 00:31:12:14
Jess Quak 
Yeah, yeah.

00:31:12:16 - 00:31:31:13
Dave Quak 
So for you guys, you both had a time where you were okay, like, feeling cold hurdles ahead. And I'm not saying there's not further hurdles, but right now, Jess, your senior pastor of a church, planted another church doing lots of speaking. You kind of live in the hurdle like, you.

00:31:31:13 - 00:31:32:13
Jess Quak 
Know, on the other side, the.

00:31:32:13 - 00:31:52:14
Dave Quak 
Other side of the hurdle. You know, on the other side. Maddie, you're taking care of the development of the young adults in our movement, which is so vital because leadership development, as you would be all over is so important because they're just not coming through like they did 20 years ago. Like when I was a Bible college, there was a whole gaggle of us, yeah, who were like, itching to be pastors.

00:31:52:14 - 00:32:09:06
Dave Quak 
Yeah, we were at my friend Steph's church at the moment, and he was there, and there was heaps of us, and it was like, come on, let's do this. Yeah. They're not there now. Yeah. And so you're on the other end of the hurdle in the sense that you're mentoring basically most of the next generation leaders and stuff.

00:32:09:06 - 00:32:28:12
Dave Quak 
So what's it like being on the other end of the hurdle? I know there's more hurdles coming, but at least now you're like living what you feel called to. You'll hear the answer to that question and a lot more discussion with Mattie and Jess next week. In the meantime, if you want to grow deeper in your faith and mental wellbeing, we've got a 28 day course called Loving Life with Faith and Mental Health.

00:32:28:14 - 00:32:41:10
Dave Quak 
It's only 28 bucks and it is helping people all over the world connect with God and also grow in their mental wellbeing. So check that out. Otherwise, come back next week and hear the rest of the chat with Jason. Maddy. God bless and have a good week.

PART 2

Welcome to Sunburnt Souls. My name is Dave Quak, and on the show we speak about life and faith and our mental well-being. And last week, we started chatting to desk worker Maddie Mandell about leadership and what it means to be a woman called to ministry and all the mental health implications of that. I ended last week with a question that we didn't answer.

00:00:18:13 - 00:00:36:01
Dave Quak 
So we're going to pick up there today and just explore a little bit more what it means to be called and live as a woman of faith. If you missed last week, check it out on Spotify or Apple or any of the major podcast providers, and make sure you send us any comments if you have any. Because I feel super blessed that we're able to tackle this topic.

00:00:36:05 - 00:00:55:16
Dave Quak 
So thanks for tuning into some souls and let's pick it up where we left off last week. So for you girls, you both had a time where you were okay, like feeling cold hurdles ahead. And I'm not saying there's not further hurdles, but right now, Jess, your senior pastor of a church, planted another church doing lots of speaking.

00:00:55:17 - 00:00:59:15
Dave Quak 
You kind of live in the hurdle. Like, you know.

00:00:59:16 - 00:01:00:15
Jess Quak 
I'm outside on the other.

00:01:00:15 - 00:01:20:12
Dave Quak 
Side of the hurdle. You're on the other side, Maddie. You're taking care of the development of the young adults in our movement, which is so vital because leadership development, as you would be all over, is so important because they're just not coming through like they did 20 years ago. Like when I was a Bible college, there was a whole gaggle of us, yeah, who were like, itching to be pastors.

00:01:20:13 - 00:01:39:14
Dave Quak 
Yeah, we're at my friend Stefs church at the moment, and he was there and there was heaps of us, and it was like, come on, let's do this. Yeah. They're not there now. Yeah. And so you're on the other end of the hurdle in the sense that you're mentoring basically most of the next generation leaders and stuff. So what's it like being on the other end of the hurdle?

00:01:39:14 - 00:01:47:20
Dave Quak 
I know there's more hurdles coming, but at least now you're like living what you feel called to. So what's it like living on the other side of that hurdle?

00:01:47:22 - 00:02:09:04
Maddy Mandell
There's, I think it's one of those things, like, there's a lot of I do have a lot of gratefulness, and I have, I have a lot of moments where I've. I've sat back and I've looked at God and and. Yeah, just worship him being like, this is this is what I really wanted to be. This is what I wanted to be doing years ago.

00:02:09:06 - 00:02:28:17
Maddy Mandell
And, and the spaces that I wanted to be ministering and the people that I wanted to be walking alongside. And so and so in no senses. Yeah. Heaps of gratitude. You know, it's. And then like, you know, not to, like, drag it back again though, but like, there is an element even not even on the other side of, of those big hurdles.

00:02:28:19 - 00:02:50:16
Maddy Mandell
You're still and you're still navigating them to a certain extent as well. Like I, you know, I feel like instead of, working through calling myself and, you know, being like being the case study subject to working through that in a community. I get to sit in more of an advocacy space now on a larger level as well.

00:02:50:16 - 00:03:15:09
Maddy Mandell
And that that comes with its own challenges, for sure. But that's, you know, like, I, I it's this isn't just about me. Like, this is, you know, this is for the future women that are coming alongside me, but also just for the future of our churches and of the kingdom of God, because I believe that those things are all really tied together and so, yeah, in some senses, it hasn't totally disappeared.

00:03:15:09 - 00:03:33:14
Maddy Mandell
It just kind of like grows in its scale, which, you know, is is what it is. But but yeah, definitely not to discount the moments of, of gratitude. And just, you know, like being able to, to walk in and minister in such a way where some of those questions have, have the question marks that really, really plagued me in the early days.

00:03:33:17 - 00:03:34:06
Dave Quak 
Yeah.

00:03:34:08 - 00:03:50:15
Maddy Mandell
Have soul in a way. You know, and there are still men like there. Their churches, I know, will not invite me to come speak. And not that I, you know, and that's like that. That is their their choice. And there's still a pain that comes from kind of feeling like there is that's a glass ceiling or like, I would just love to bless and serve like.

00:03:50:19 - 00:03:51:02
Dave Quak 
Yeah.

00:03:51:03 - 00:03:53:22
Maddy Mandell
A whole movement. And I that's not going to happen.

00:03:53:22 - 00:04:01:12
Dave Quak 
And they'll probably be project 11 students in those churches as well that you could go and speak and talk about told them up and yeah.

00:04:01:14 - 00:04:15:05
Maddy Mandell
Yeah, all those different things and so you know, there's I guess it's I guess it's just kind of a grace that goes along with that. I have, I have, I have, you know, I respect that and you know, that that's just a reality and that's okay. But, but there's a little grief in my heart for that as well.

00:04:15:05 - 00:04:34:01
Maddy Mandell
But but certainly, yeah, so much gratitude to, to just be able to walk in a way and to walk in spaces that, that I had that I had dreamed of, I guess, and wondered, am I ever going to be able to do that, or is it always going to, is it always going to feel like I'm, I'm trying to get over a hurdle or coming up against a wall or, or whatever that might look like?

00:04:34:03 - 00:04:36:13
Dave Quak 
Yeah, you too. Yeah.

00:04:36:15 - 00:05:05:16
Jess Quak 
Yeah. So it's a because I'm sort of in a little bit of a different space is somewhat of a different dynamic. But yeah. That gratitude thing. Absolutely. It's, when you feel like you're no longer having to justify your presence. Yeah. It's really beautiful where you can just be yourself and you can explore the other parts of yourself that you have to offer apart from just your gender.

00:05:05:18 - 00:05:38:14
Jess Quak 
Which is awesome. But I think for me, my probably my biggest current hurdle that I still working through in this particular space is is perhaps my own cynicism. With very being the token female like, you are asked to come along to this thing, or you're asked to be a part of this thing simply because I'm a woman, and not necessarily because I'm the best person for that job.

00:05:38:16 - 00:06:05:04
Jess Quak 
And I see both sides of it. I see, that there are other people who just my presence by being a woman in this space, will help that person not have to justify their own calling and that sort of that responsibility that comes with that. But it's also the exact opposite of what I was sort of standing for at the beginning of the whole thing going, it's nothing to do with whether I'm a guy or a girl.

00:06:05:04 - 00:06:32:06
Jess Quak 
It's just about, this is I'm the best person for this because God has called me to it. So there's that sort of tension that's there with things and just trying to navigate, okay, God, I want to do the right thing across the board with this, and I want to make sure that I'm not the token, that I have something to bring, and that it's still an element of really being prayerful about.

00:06:32:08 - 00:06:58:14
Jess Quak 
When I say yes to something or notice something, I'm going to have to do that anyway. Life is a party. Pretty maxed out anyway. But just knowing going forward there is an element, and especially because so often, you know, if I'm asked to go preached at church, it's always talking about women in ministry. Can you we need a woman to do this, which absolutely makes sense because it's really hard.

00:06:58:16 - 00:07:18:12
Jess Quak 
Yeah. Like, you know, we hate preaching on money at church because we were receiving a wage from the church. So it seems really self-serving and really like, but as so then it makes sense. But it's still like, okay, how do how do I navigate this sort of space?

00:07:18:12 - 00:07:27:21
Dave Quak 
So how do you know if you're being invited to things because you both get invited to a lot of things. If it is token or if it is genuine.

00:07:27:23 - 00:07:31:17
Maddy Mandell
It's almost not even the question I ask any.

00:07:31:22 - 00:07:35:23
Dave Quak 
You just take the opportunity usually.

00:07:36:00 - 00:08:00:10
Maddy Mandell
And you know. If you're the only, you know, often it's like being asked to join a committee or whatever. You're the only woman there or, you know, you know that yourself. And everyone has only been asked because they looked around the room and realized this is like, oh, do you do, that, you know, there's a certain picture that's forming there.

00:08:00:10 - 00:08:19:22
Maddy Mandell
But, you know, it's in certain spaces. I think it's just I found like, no, it's just it's important to take it. And, you know, particularly if I am the only person these days talking about that advocacy space, I just do what I can to make sure that's kind of not the case next time, because you also that that's a difficult space to be in because you're like, oh, like, great, I'm here.

00:08:20:01 - 00:08:39:03
Maddy Mandell
But now I feel like I'm representing all womankind. And that's like a ridiculous pressure to place on somebody as well. And so, you know, I'm stepping into those spaces and being like, okay, like I'm, I'm thankful for this opportunity and I'm going to be as brave as I possibly can be and speak out. Yeah, and speak out and be that voice.

00:08:39:03 - 00:08:57:17
Maddy Mandell
But how can I make sure that next time or even, you know, just like that, there is that there's a wider path being carved out, so that it's not just like a token voice so we can take a box, but so that the voices of women are actually being more holistically and genuinely incorporated into those conversations in the future.

00:08:57:17 - 00:09:08:20
Maddy Mandell
So like, yeah, I think that's the thing. I don't know, maybe that is a cynical view of like, oh, maybe it's just tokenism more than we want it to be. But, well, you know, how can God use that opportunity? Yeah, nonetheless. Yeah.

00:09:08:22 - 00:09:31:11
Dave Quak 
Back to an earlier illustrations like so with Kay Warren. So you would on paper look at the weekend Kay and Rick's obviously the one who most people know around the world. But when it came to talking about her son and everything I want to hear from Kay. Dear. I mean like she's the authority on what it would be like to lose a son.

00:09:31:17 - 00:09:44:20
Dave Quak 
I know he lost a son too, but there's just a different angle from a mum, you know what I mean. Look I'm like I want to hear from the mum, do you know what I mean? And so there are some areas where the mum, the females, the ladies are the authority and the place where you want them there.

00:09:44:22 - 00:10:00:23
Dave Quak 
And so, like you said, Jess, you don't want just to be the token person, you want to be the best person. And so I'd like to see conferences where the, the four best people are the four best people, irrespective of gender or you know, that the you know, I said, if I told you all women could. Yeah. Do you know what I mean?

00:10:00:24 - 00:10:01:09
Maddy Mandell
Yeah.

00:10:01:10 - 00:10:18:16
Dave Quak 
Like it's a bizarre thought like that. We would just okay, put somebody in and I'm sorry when you guys feel like that, because that would be it. I mean, I don't mind being the token guy because I just like opportunities, but I like what's on, and I'm so like, I'm a middle class white dude. Like, it's just a whole different ballgame.

00:10:18:16 - 00:10:38:12
Dave Quak 
Like to have barriers in front of me because agenda has never been a thing. Yeah. Or race or any of that stuff. It's just been kind of like, here's the, you know, the red carpet walk down that dude. And yeah, church doors open and, you know, the pastoring doors open and speaking door's open. It's a whole different thing.

00:10:38:12 - 00:10:53:01
Dave Quak 
And then theologically, I don't really have to wrestle with anything because there's so many male disciples. It's like, I've got all these examples as Peter and John and you know what I mean? So I like I don't have to like, wrestle that much with the hard passages in scripture.

00:10:53:03 - 00:10:54:10
Maddy Mandell
It's just.

00:10:54:12 - 00:11:20:09
Jess Quak 
Yeah, I think there's even to like on a micro level, we kind of like we have in our marriage, even so, both in our leadership, because we share the senior pastor role in our leadership, in our marriage, in our friendship. We, a little bit reversed with some things, like if we're going to have someone over for dinner to cook, I'm not going to be the one who's doing it.

00:11:20:09 - 00:11:52:16
Jess Quak 
It's going to be Dave. And so like but classically, the stereotype is okay, we have hospitality ministry coming up. Women, where are you? Where is one of our best hospitality people in our church is a guy. And when Zach's on, he makes the best cookies and everyone is like, yes, sex on today. And like, so for me it's it's that constant little like, you know, oh, you'd be before we had kids, I was okay on kids ministry, but I was really in the youth space.

00:11:52:16 - 00:11:53:11
Dave Quak 
But yeah.

00:11:53:13 - 00:12:07:18
Jess Quak 
That, you should be great with kids or you should run women's ministry. Like, that's really like, I see that you're trying to, like, involve me, and that's wonderful. But you've got to know that these are really not my areas of gifting you like. But, but.

00:12:07:18 - 00:12:34:02
Dave Quak 
And so it goes deeper. Just like the other day. Like it's not I mean, hospitality, another great example. But most people would say that in a church, you know, the male senior pastor would be the guy who pulls apart the series for the next six weeks and works that out. Whereas the other day, and this is literally what happened, I went with Jess over to my friend Andy's house, and all three of us were going to pull apart the series, and within two minutes I'm like, these geeks, I just.

00:12:34:02 - 00:12:53:13
Dave Quak 
And so I just went outside with his wife and had a cup of tea and Jess to do it because that's her area of strength. Like she froths out on it and like, it's so funny, like people in our church know that you steal the teaching series and you're actually the more committed pastor out of the two of us.

00:12:53:13 - 00:13:11:08
Dave Quak 
Like, I've always got reservations and complications and you know what I mean? Like, I'm not the stable one out of the two of us. Although if they had to pick between you and I as a senior pastor, they would be very wise to pick you. And you know it and they know it. And people listening would say it.

00:13:11:10 - 00:13:33:04
Dave Quak 
I communicate well, but I'm not structurally anything behind the scenes. Do you know what I mean? And so what? And what's a pastor supposed to do is like shepherd the flock. I can do that with a few. But I don't have this, like mad big shepherding kinda thing. Whereas you want to raise up, you know, the next generation of people you want to sow into leaders and life group leaders and stuff.

00:13:33:06 - 00:13:42:17
Dave Quak 
Like when I, I just find it very hilarious that your skill set is way more applicable in the church then my skill set. And then just because I'm the rebel.

00:13:42:20 - 00:13:43:09
Jess Quak 
But yeah.

00:13:43:09 - 00:13:45:12
Dave Quak 
But yeah, because I'm the loud voice guy. Yeah.

00:13:45:12 - 00:13:55:06
Jess Quak 
You're the classic like back in the 90s when you're, like, looking for a new leader. There's the loudest guy in the room and he's so charismatic. We're picking them because they must be the leader.

00:13:55:08 - 00:13:59:02
Dave Quak 
He can tell a joke and make the Bible sound appealing. Yeah, let's get him on.

00:13:59:04 - 00:14:20:02
Jess Quak 
That's not to devalue that, though. There's definitely great value in that. It's good for the team. But yeah, we definitely have those different and just because yeah, you're a man and I'm a woman. Like even like you love a good rom com. You love it like I don't watch TV. So when people are talking about this actor and that actor, I've got no idea what people are talking about.

00:14:20:02 - 00:14:35:00
Jess Quak 
And Dave is like, right in there. Like, yes. Have you seen the new season of this or whatever? Which is awesome. It makes you so relatable. It's wonderful. But I'm just that stuff's like over my head. I'm like, yeah, I really could not give a rip. But if you want to talk about the cricket, I am all over.

00:14:35:01 - 00:14:36:20
Jess Quak 
Yeah, you hate it.

00:14:36:22 - 00:14:42:05
Dave Quak 
It's sort of the stereotype. They don't work in our fun side of things, but also in our ministry side of things.

00:14:42:05 - 00:15:01:20
Jess Quak 
Yeah. So that's I think probably where the cynicism comes from. A little be doing that. And that's my own stuff to work through. And just, you know, no, probably more feeling a lot more comfortable in my own skin to be like, yeah, no, that's actually not my thing. You. Yeah. That's okay. It doesn't have to be my thing.

00:15:01:20 - 00:15:05:16
Jess Quak 
If that's. And that's all right, too. Yeah. But yeah.

00:15:05:20 - 00:15:16:00
Dave Quak 
But in your context with the people you're developing, do you find that the young male leaders listen to you as well as the young female leaders with P11 and everything?

00:15:16:02 - 00:15:35:15
Maddy Mandell
Yeah, I think so. You know, it like, every relationship, there's a little bit different, like, based on, you know, all of that. But I've definitely found, particularly in the last few years, that I've been working on it on a state level and getting to know so many different people. And particularly now I'm sort of at this age where I'm like, oh, there are people kind of ten years younger than me.

00:15:35:15 - 00:15:40:18
Maddy Mandell
And like, I realize all of a sudden I'm like, oh, no, there. I kind of look at me like I'm the one who's got clue.

00:15:40:20 - 00:15:43:05
Dave Quak 
You know, it's weird when you do that. Yeah, yeah.

00:15:43:07 - 00:16:01:06
Maddy Mandell
I still do. I feel like that sometimes. But, and so, you know, in those kind of contexts, I, I'm realizing more and more that there are people around that I can speak with. And, you know, at this point in my ministry to even people that are sort of my contemporaries are speaking with another, guy the other day.

00:16:01:06 - 00:16:14:04
Maddy Mandell
He's about 30s and his first black lead pastoral role when we were talking ministry and we're talking strategy and, and, and even that as well. It was just like, oh, this is, this is a lack of respect. And this is. Yeah, lack of camaraderie that I. Yeah.

00:16:14:04 - 00:16:15:06
Dave Quak 
He wanted to hear from you. Yeah.

00:16:15:06 - 00:16:49:14
Maddy Mandell
I didn't know if I would ever get it. And there are still large portions of people that probably wouldn't like, think that I have anything to offer for that conversation. That's fine, but it but it's, it's really incredible to to see because I think even in what you guys were both just kind of touching on there is, is to see any to see any person walking in the, the giftings that God has given them using, using their talents and to, you know, build up others and to bless the kingdom is just such an incredible thing.

00:16:49:15 - 00:17:08:20
Maddy Mandell
Yes, that can happen across genders like that. You know that like women can be walking in that space. They can be walking along in that space with, with guys as well. And so, I love those moments. Yeah. When I, when I get to work on that and it just, it just feels like, you know, like in Daniel Strickland's book that, you know, better together.

00:17:08:20 - 00:17:17:00
Maddy Mandell
It's those moments, like, I really does feel like maybe we are better together when we are just all after the same goal which is seen. God glorified, his kingdom grown.

00:17:17:02 - 00:17:17:17
Dave Quak 
Yeah.

00:17:17:19 - 00:17:18:24
Maddy Mandell
Transformed.

00:17:19:01 - 00:17:19:09
Dave Quak 
Yeah.

00:17:19:14 - 00:17:23:14
Maddy Mandell
Let's get amongst it. So yeah, it's cool to see. Yeah.

00:17:23:17 - 00:17:26:23
Dave Quak 
Do we have any women senior pastors in our movement? Solo.

00:17:27:00 - 00:17:39:04
Maddy Mandell
Yeah. We we do have one on one of our, like, culturally, linguistically diverse churches. And she has a gun. She's really. Yeah. It's just like planting a church every other day.

00:17:39:06 - 00:17:39:11
Dave Quak 
Yeah.

00:17:39:12 - 00:18:05:03
Maddy Mandell
She's incredible. She's absolutely incredible. And, and potentially somewhere in the pipeline, which is really exciting. But I definitely still think that that's an area in which we, we don't have a lot of of of classic examples. We do have a few women that are, that are in leadership positions in their church, but similar position. Do you guys that co-leading with their spouse as well and are doing phenomenal things in their own right with their own giftings?

00:18:05:03 - 00:18:24:22
Maddy Mandell
Yeah. You know, as you expressed a little bit already, like you figure that sometimes people don't always see that and let it stand on its own the way that it should be, you know, standing on its own as well. But my, my prayer into the future is that we continue to see more, more women, you know, not just like, not be senior pastors to prove a point, but no, because that's what God's called them to do.

00:18:24:22 - 00:18:45:03
Maddy Mandell
And it's what they gifted to do. And their leadership is maybe going to look different. Those churches are maybe going to look different to whatever, like that typical picture that we might have in our head. But I just think, oh my goodness. Like, imagine what the opportunity might actually be be in that. And so yeah, I pray that that more and more that might become something that becomes a little bit more normal.

00:18:45:03 - 00:18:48:06
Maddy Mandell
And we get more and more examples of what that looks like.

00:18:48:11 - 00:19:05:22
Dave Quak 
Yeah. Well, I wonder what. Tell me a little bit more about what you see that looks like. So one thing I've noticed, this isn't a criticism, but sometimes when there's a woman senior pastor, she leads like a dude. Do you know what I mean? Like, I'm thinking, like, Joyce Meyer type people. Like, she's amazing. I love her content.

00:19:05:22 - 00:19:24:12
Dave Quak 
The other day, I was struggling with hating somebody, and I would listen to one of her Love Your Enemy sermons that I'm on might straightened out within a few minutes. So what do you think is the difference between senior leadership, between men and women, where women don't lead like men, they lead like the women. God's made them to be like, oh, what's that look like?

00:19:24:14 - 00:19:30:07
Maddy Mandell
I mean, you know, I think I think it's hard to answer those questions that like, automatically just leaning on stereotypes.

00:19:30:12 - 00:19:32:17
Dave Quak 
And I gave, you know, I know like.

00:19:32:19 - 00:19:52:22
Maddy Mandell
That I can like think that it might sort of look like and I don't know, I guess even possibly if there's if this is a better way to speak about it, thinking about my own leadership style and my own giftings. It's really only been in the last couple of years that I've been able to sit back and go, yeah, I could see myself leading a community or leading a church one day.

00:19:52:24 - 00:20:16:11
Maddy Mandell
And knowing that that would probably look a little bit different, you know, and again, so like, I can say all this and like, maybe it's leans on stereotypes. It's not the men don't do this. Yeah. But you know, a little bit more in that, that collaborative kind of space, you know, raising of this up like, you know, empowering others and responsibility, all of those different kinds of things as well.

00:20:16:13 - 00:20:40:13
Maddy Mandell
Stereotypical. Again, I don't know. I just wonder if there's a different kind of a different kind, but an emphasis on on nurturing care and compassion that might come out when we see women in, in, you know, positions of leadership like that. That's some of the things I wonder about. I guess it's say, yes, I mean, me, you know, it's kind of like, I hope we see more of this in the future.

00:20:40:13 - 00:20:45:13
Maddy Mandell
Part of me is like, yeah, actually, just. Yeah, I would just love to see. I just love to see what that looks like. Well, I.

00:20:45:13 - 00:20:58:13
Dave Quak 
Actually think you're on to something better. That's really all I can say, the collaborative thing, because women are usually a little better at pulling out the best of everyone, rather than saying, I'm going this way, follow me. You know, a little bit less on the gates of hell, but let's do this together.

00:20:58:14 - 00:21:17:05
Maddy Mandell
Yeah, yeah. And I think that, like, maybe that comes from, like, my perspective more than anyone else's. You know, yes, we we need to have vision as leaders and we want to be able to to, you know, discern what God's will is for people and lead in a certain direction. But I'm far less inclined to just kind of decide that myself and roll with it, you know?

00:21:17:05 - 00:21:18:08
Maddy Mandell
That's cool. And.

00:21:18:08 - 00:21:23:12
Dave Quak 
Wait, wait a second. From what do you like, collaboration? Because I always feel like it's too much work for us.

00:21:23:12 - 00:21:27:06
Maddy Mandell
So much work. And it's not easy. Like it's not that is not the population is that, you.

00:21:27:06 - 00:21:31:24
Dave Quak 
Know, but then people say stuff you don't want to hear. You have to like weigh it up and.

00:21:32:01 - 00:21:52:09
Maddy Mandell
They want to know. It's actually really funny. I think in my early years of ministry, I was sort of forced to do that a little bit more, and that was because I was a young woman minister and people didn't trust me. And so that's actually what I had to do was to go slack, infuriatingly slow, try to bring people on a journey, establish, okay, what are our shared values?

00:21:52:09 - 00:22:14:00
Maddy Mandell
What do we feel like God is pulling us into? And then there were moments where I would be like, no, this is, you know, X, y, Z is is important. We need to push it to that. But by and large, I would try and work with the people around me, because, you know. Yeah, like in this ironic kind of way of like, I don't know if that, you know, I could set the vision, but the way things stand right now, I don't know if they're gonna come with me.

00:22:14:02 - 00:22:32:02
Maddy Mandell
So we're going to do this together. But I saw the fruit of that as well. Yeah. So the ownership that came from that, and I saw the way that that team was built around that, the way that other people and other people's voices were empowered. And so, yeah, ironically, yeah, having experienced that and having it. Yeah, kind of a frustrating experience.

00:22:32:04 - 00:22:37:06
Maddy Mandell
But I look back now and actually, you know what. Yeah. Like I think I think there's some ways to do that as well.

00:22:37:08 - 00:22:51:23
Dave Quak 
Now that's good. I got a friend who goes to a church where it's very much, you get told what to do, and it's an effective church, but he just feels not it not bought in. It's like, well, I don't know who's on staff, I don't know, you know, where we're heading. Yeah. So like there's no real buy in you know.

00:22:51:23 - 00:22:54:12
Dave Quak 
And eventually he, he's like I think I'll stay you know.

00:22:54:14 - 00:23:10:20
Maddy Mandell
Yeah. And I think, you know, you've said like it's still an effective church. So I think that's just the thing we always need to remember in, in this isn't the all different people, all different gifts or different ways of doing things. God's going to bless. Yeah, 100 churches that look 100 different ways. If they're seeking to honor him.

00:23:10:22 - 00:23:18:00
Maddy Mandell
Yeah, I guess. Yeah. But I, I dream for a day where we see what that might look like. Yeah. With a few more women walking in the fullness of the calling that God might have placed on them.

00:23:18:00 - 00:23:27:04
Dave Quak 
That's cool. What about you, Jess? You bring a lot of people along. People and leaders along with you. What's your sort of like mindset towards that in this?

00:23:27:06 - 00:23:56:04
Jess Quak 
I think there's possibly a lot to do with my personality as well. So I even look at you and your brother, who are both. Yeah, pastors of churches, and you have very different personalities, and you pastor in very different ways. And, I think I would like to see women. Yeah. Feel the freedom in that, that just being authentically who God has created you to be, to lead you and the community because each community's different too.

00:23:56:04 - 00:24:24:08
Jess Quak 
Like if you are genuinely leading people, they're not these like cut outs of ideal people. They're they're real lives and they're living within a real demographic of a time and space. And there's going to be certain pressures and there's going to be certain influences. And so that community is going to look different to another community that might be up the road, that has different people and different.

00:24:24:10 - 00:24:51:13
Jess Quak 
And so it's really the leaders responsibility to serve that community in the best way. And for some communities, that will be okay, guys, we need to just like pull our heads out. This is what Jesus has called us to. Let's go. Yeah. And even that very same community in a different season might be like, okay, now that we've we're all going, let's get together and get around one another and see, like, what do you have to bring to the table.

00:24:51:13 - 00:25:15:18
Jess Quak 
Yeah. So it's really a matter of, still doing that in the way that God has made you to do that. But it's if you're serving a community as well, like Under God, and following his leading, it's gonna, it's the freedom to look different. I think he's probably better than rather than a pastor. Looks like this square cutout shape.

00:25:15:18 - 00:25:34:20
Jess Quak 
Yeah. If you don't look like this, then maybe ministry is not for you. Yeah, yeah, it's that, ministry can look like anything. Like, I remember back in the day when I got so sick of having women in ministry, conversation, I was like, I want to write a book, and I'm just getting all my ideas down. These people, if people if people ask me, I'm just going to hand it to them.

00:25:34:22 - 00:26:00:22
Jess Quak 
And one of the things was going to be, women are in ministry. If you're a Christian, you are in ministry. Yeah, there is no debate about that. So as much as, you know, there is a portion of the population of women who are going to be called to leadership and pastoral ministry, there's there's a whole heap of other women to who we need to equally be empowering that actually know you are in ministry.

00:26:00:24 - 00:26:17:03
Jess Quak 
Yeah. And it is ministry. It's serving the church with the gifts that you have. And so every believer has a responsibility to go, okay, God, who have you made me to be? How am I going to bring it? And doing that faithfully?

00:26:17:05 - 00:26:31:22
Dave Quak 
Maddie, before you said there's 55% women and 45% in P11 projects. 11 do you know you research and stuff more than me? Do you know if that's the stats of the church these days? Like how we heavy women to men church wide?

00:26:31:24 - 00:26:52:06
Maddy Mandell
I that's very generous. I, I know that in general in certain areas of the church at least that has been true. But, you know, in recent times we've also been hearing stats, mostly out of the states, but hear a little bit too about, you know, like Gen Z males coming to faith in, in drones as well and way that we haven't seen before.

00:26:52:08 - 00:27:10:08
Maddy Mandell
And so, yeah, so I didn't have like super up to date on on that as well. But I do know I've read and said like I think certainly in the Catholic Church for a while they spoke about how there was a majority that were women. And so, you know, I don't know about the most recent data, but it said and I know there have been periods of time where that's been that's been true.

00:27:10:12 - 00:27:36:00
Dave Quak 
Yeah. Yeah, I think it's I mean, on a anecdotally, most of the churches that I'm involved in mostly have more women than men. Just it seems to be the case. But a lot of what you both said about, like, you know, the we need to be creative about future, representations of the church. Like, I may have been whingeing to Jess on the way up here about church, because not if living temple people are listening.

00:27:36:00 - 00:27:56:01
Dave Quak 
I love you, it's not you, it's me. But like, we just get together, marry all the time and sing songs and then do a sermon. Yeah. And go home. Yeah. You know, and I know there's fruit in it, but I'm like, there's so much freedom in the Word of God on how church can look. Yeah, yeah. You know, wouldn't it be awesome if we could be a bit more creative on all of that stuff?

00:27:56:01 - 00:28:14:08
Dave Quak 
And look at some of the other passages in the Bible about church structures and, well, at least find one that says you have to have songs and then a sermon and then go home like an announcements, like maybe that's what the the future women senior pastors can bring is actually openness to a bit of difference. Yeah, not just in row.

00:28:14:08 - 00:28:17:16
Dave Quak 
It's not just doing the same thing over and over and over and over.

00:28:17:16 - 00:28:20:18
Maddy Mandell
Yeah, yeah, it sounds like it could be a day like this.

00:28:20:19 - 00:28:28:18
Dave Quak 
Okay. You know, I'll be something. I'll just. Yeah. And I actually love the Company of Women in Love group last night. Just. Yeah, it was, it.

00:28:28:20 - 00:28:30:05
Jess Quak 
Was, it was the only God made.

00:28:30:09 - 00:28:52:06
Dave Quak 
Last night. So the guys I'm not the only dude, but there was, like, just this bunch of 30 year old, like, mostly single epic women. Yeah. Who were just, like, living for the kingdom and leading people to Jesus and loving God and, you know, serving, being chaplains and all the just such legends. And so, yeah, it's just it's really encouraging.

00:28:52:08 - 00:28:53:11
Maddy Mandell
Yeah.

00:28:53:13 - 00:29:10:05
Dave Quak 
Man, it's been such a good chat, ladies, but Jess and Maddie, we're going to start winding up. But just as we do I'd love to ask you each to answer. So like, what is it about being pastors that you love? I know there's hurdles. There's other stuff too, but what do you love?

00:29:10:07 - 00:29:36:22
Maddy Mandell
There is. Yeah. There's just so much incredible stuff. It it's it's an unbelievable privilege to be able to walk with individuals. And, you know, I guess in the context of what we've been talking about today, I, I there's a real joy in moments where I, yeah, get to work with young women especially, and help them feel secure and feel safe in their giftings and in that call, maybe in ways that I had doubted in the past.

00:29:36:22 - 00:30:01:07
Maddy Mandell
But that's true across the board with everybody. But also the way that you get to see that then magnified in a whole community of people, you know, we've all got like relationships and friendship groups in our life, but there's something so unique in working with individuals. But then also seeing the way a church community, or a group of, you know, communities, I guess in the context I'm in right now when they walk with the Lord.

00:30:01:09 - 00:30:20:01
Maddy Mandell
How you see God moves in that, I guess, how you see other people's lives transformed and communities changed. And, you just it's like you're watching this story play out like it. And it's not it's not your story. It's so any one person's story, it's what God is doing. But you get to see that play out in such an incredible way.

00:30:20:03 - 00:30:45:14
Maddy Mandell
And you're not the hero. You are not the author. You are just loving people and trying to empower them. And, you know, in moments, maybe trying to help shed light on something or redirect or whatever that looks like. And so that is a really that's a really incredible thing. And, and you know, as well, like when, when you, when you feel called to this work and, you know, it's what God's asked you to do with your life, like the purpose that comes with that.

00:30:45:16 - 00:31:03:12
Maddy Mandell
Was just saying against my husband the other day, I was, oh, yeah, like, I just I could not see myself doing anything else. Lack of this is this is it. And so when you walk in that kind of space, the the purpose and the hope that comes with that and you know, yeah, knowing there's going to be ups and downs but but this is where God wants me to be and I'm walking in.

00:31:03:12 - 00:31:05:21
Maddy Mandell
That is is such a privilege.

00:31:06:01 - 00:31:14:23
Dave Quak 
I love that man. When you talk about that, your face lights up so you wouldn't you know, you said, this is what I want to do. Not if someone else offered you a 500 grand to do something else or.

00:31:15:04 - 00:31:16:09
Maddy Mandell
No, no.

00:31:16:11 - 00:31:17:10
Dave Quak 
This is what you built for.

00:31:17:11 - 00:31:18:13
Maddy Mandell
This is it. I love.

00:31:18:13 - 00:31:21:07
Dave Quak 
It. What about you, Jess?

00:31:21:09 - 00:31:42:00
Jess Quak 
Yeah, that's. You sum that up really? Well, I think is I just, I think for me personally, it just it is like food for my soul. When I see those light bulb moment, say, moments of revelation or I have moments for people and that it can be, you know, a four year old or a 90 year old.

00:31:42:06 - 00:32:11:22
Jess Quak 
And there's God at work in all of these different people, and we're all working in moving together. Finding ourselves more in him and then seeing the way he's moving and the way that we are representing him to the world around us. I think that is just, yeah, such a privilege to be a part of. I think for me, I, you know, I say that today we get to do this.

00:32:11:22 - 00:32:51:15
Jess Quak 
We actually. Yeah. And it can look so different and that's fun too. And and that you had the honor of being able to see someone through heartbreak or celebrate in the biggest moments. It is, and just having God there and just making it just so meaningful. It is. Yeah. It's just it's like it it's a it's a pouring out and act of worship, but then it draws me to worship because I then see how God does what he does with just his people.

00:32:51:15 - 00:32:52:08
Jess Quak 
Yeah.

00:32:52:10 - 00:33:09:02
Dave Quak 
Thank you Jesus, that was awesome to. I think you both got a ten out of ten for that answer in case you. Yeah. Hey, just quick, Maddie Mendell, it's been such an honor having you both here. I feel really privileged to have heard from you both. Because you're my good wife. Jess, I get to hear you pray a lot.

00:33:09:04 - 00:33:17:08
Dave Quak 
So today, Maddie, would you please bless us and the listeners by praying us out? And thank you so much for coming on. So many souls.

00:33:17:08 - 00:33:49:18
Maddy Mandell
Maddie. Thank you so much. I'd love to you. Lord, we just thank you so much that you are such an a creative and personal God that you have made all of humanity, with so much variety. Lord, men and women with different personalities, different gifts, different callings. But your desire, Lord, to weave us together in this beautiful tapestry kind of way.

00:33:49:20 - 00:34:09:17
Maddy Mandell
You know, even in the midst of our brokenness and our sinfulness in this life here, so that we can serve you so that we can bless other people is just such an incredible life to live. And and so, Lord, we just pray that that as, as the church continues to live, continues to seek to serve you alongside one another.

00:34:09:19 - 00:34:35:16
Maddy Mandell
That yeah, more people would be church, that more glory would be brought to your name. But there are so many big questions that we ask ourselves. Things like women in ministry or whatever else that might be. We want to continue to walk those things through in community with grace. We want to continue to love on the people that those conversations affect in a unique way.

00:34:35:18 - 00:34:56:10
Maddy Mandell
But that's just ultimately because, Lord, we know that you call us to love one another. And so it's a joy to be able to live for you, to worship you, Lord, even in the midst of things that might feel gray or seasons that might be difficult. We know that you have called us to yourself to live for you, to live in relationship with you and to serve you.

00:34:56:10 - 00:35:13:04
Maddy Mandell
And and so I just pray for the three of us here in this room and all those who might be listening, that we would just continue to be able to walk in step with you to step into the callings you placed on each of our lives, whatever that might look like. Knowing that even when we are weak, you are strong and you carry us very.

00:35:13:04 - 00:35:16:00
Maddy Mandell
So we just thank you for this time. In Jesus name.

00:35:16:02 - 00:35:17:01
Dave Quak 
Amen. Amen.